Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Eurgh. It has been a while since i have played and my head is abit screwed up. I have lost abit of feel and cant decide wether i want to raise because its the right move or im pumped up and want to play. Initially i wanted to raise pre flop here but then plucked the standard play out of my head and didnt not go crazy with the AK oop. I think not doing so was a huge mistake but will let you decide. More interested in pre flop rather than post flop. No reads on villains.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($4.90)
Button ($7.75)
SB ($14.55)
Hero ($10.50)
UTG ($7)
MP ($12.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.10, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $0.50, SB calls $0.45, Hero calls $0.40, UTG folds.

Flop: ($2.10) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, MP folds, Button calls $1.50, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($6.60) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($6.60) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1.5</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Final Pot: $9.60

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

It's standard to 3-bet preflop, but as you've played it, i think this is absolutely fine.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

just make it 2$ pre, you don't want to play that hand oop against multiple opponents(esp that UTG can come along).C-bet more its a wet board and you can fold to a raise.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

3b pf to 2.5-3. I like the flop donk you cant risk it getting checked around, too many draws on board. I would end up making a crying call on that river purely on the odds hes giving you.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Preflop is definately a reraise. Make it 2,5$ and probably call a push there as Ak plays bad vs 3 oop, with AK you want initiative and HU. ON the flop you could bet closer to pot as the board is very likely to have hit one of your opponent. Rest looks dine.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Definite reraise preflop, but as played I think it was good. A lot of draws out there and against 2 other villains, somebody had to hit that flush... fish just love to check their flushes on the turn, makes it a little transparent.

As played, you lost the least (I assume you lost with the 3rd heart out there)

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

re-raise preflop like 99.99999999997% of the time OOP we want this HU on the flop and not with 547890574374375439034 callers apart from wanting to get value for our huge effectively 2nd nuts hand - flat calling lets UTG join the fun as well and he's a moran for limp folding here with pot odds that good he ought to call there with absolutely ANY hand he thinks is good enough to limp UTG.

postflop I prefer check raising the flop rather than donking into the pfr. Say MP bet $1.50 and we got a ton of callers then a c/r all-in is sexy time I think.

turn and river are standard imo.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

I like the way you played it. I think a lot of players would bet the turn there and i think that would be a bit of a mistake.

Not sure about PF, i don't think it's as clear cut as some people are making out and with the pot as big as it is you'd need to 3-bet a lot and then have to play OOP if you get called (apart from the SB obv). AK IS a re-raisable hand, but not all situations are the same so i'm fine with calling here.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Cool, thanks alot. Can wrap this one up by saying Button had J8o [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

I'm much more unhappy about your flop play than your preflop play.

Preflop is usually bad because AK plays best heads up, suffers badly from RIO, and doesn't do well OOP. A big and punishing raise to $3 cleans out the detritus and lets you win often preflop and even more often with a c-bet of 2/3rds-pot.

On the flop you're sitting on the direct right of the likely raiser in a multiway pot and you DONK it?? Awful. Just terrible. You played it slow preflop so that you could have this EXACT situation come up and then you blew it. If you checked, MP would c-bet most of the time, probably to $1.50. Then, after button and SB called the bet, your call makes it $8.10 and you can safely raise all-in. That's a pot-sized raise that folds out MOST of your opponents, winning you a HUGE pot uncontested. If you're called it's likely to be by a drawing hand and you'll be ahead, or it'll be a weaker pair figuring you for a draw and you'll blow it out of the water.

Your preflop play can occasionally be acceptable depending on table conditions, but your flop play is totally unacceptable and costs you much money in the long run.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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On the flop you're sitting on the direct right of the likely raiser in a multiway pot and you DONK it?? Awful. Just terrible. You played it slow preflop so that you could have this EXACT situation come up and then you blew it. If you checked, MP would c-bet most of the time, probably to $1.50. Then, after button and SB called the bet, your call makes it $8.10 and you can safely raise all-in. That's a pot-sized raise that folds out MOST of your opponents, winning you a HUGE pot uncontested. If you're called it's likely to be by a drawing hand and you'll be ahead, or it'll be a weaker pair figuring you for a draw and you'll blow it out of the water.


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I completely disagree. This is a super scary board in a 4 way pot. Unless the opener is raising really tight preflop then he is checking this flop a lot given the pot is 4 way. Leading is definitely correct here imo as everybody's calling range is this spot is going to be wider than their betting range.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

I think this is pretty much fine. You can 3bet preflop, but OOP I don't think it's necessary. (EDIT: I guess I'm unclear on why everybody wants to pump the pot OOP. I suppose it's nice for when you hit, but with the amount of interest shown preflop by the others I don't think you're going to pick it up preflop, and there are a lot of whiffed flops that you'll cbet that you're going to get looked up on. I'd prefer to keep this pot modestly sized at the moment.)

I would probably make a moderate lead on the river, but c/c is okay as well.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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I completely disagree. This is a super scary board in a 4 way pot. Unless the opener is raising really tight preflop then he is checking this flop a lot given the pot is 4 way. Leading is definitely correct here imo as everybody's calling range is this spot is going to be wider than their betting range.

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This is my thinking as well. The PFR could easily have a hand that will not bet here and we cant risk this flop getting checked around. It is much better to donk here and make sure you get some value/protection out of your hand than to check and watch it get checked around. I definitely agree that the calling ranges of people here are wider than their betting ranges.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Some interesting debate here!

Pre flop Gump got it spot on with my thoughts, i really wanted to raise, but figured because of the action i would probably get a couple of callers and if i miss then its just horrid.

On the flop im giving no free cards, but i realise i should of potted it. but again my heads abit screwy right now.

Interesting to see everyone saying post flop was almost fine but Pokey saying the opposite. Any other thoughts?

Shame i posted the results but it does not really make a difference with the debate.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Dont get me wrong, I know where pokey is coming from with this, and yes if youre confident that villain c-bets here, then a c/r is optimal. However, I am saying that the board is very threatening and I dont think villain c-bets here as often as a villain would if the board was more dry.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

I'm with Pokey on this one. I think you should have reraised perflop, but if you do decide to flat, the only reason to do so is because you have good relative position in the hand. To donk the flop totally takes away said relative position, making your preflop play ridiculous. I think this flop hits the other players' ranges pretty hard, and I don't think it gets checked around that often. If the PFR bets behind you, you're in a great situation. C/R flop.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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I am saying that the board is very threatening and I dont think villain c-bets here as often as a villain would if the board was more dry.

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Undeniably true: the chances that villain c-bets this flop have gone down. However, our goal is not to get money into the pot with the highest frequency; our goal is to win the largest AVERAGE pot.

Think of it this way: we've got $2.10 in the pot and four opponents. Let's say that villain c-bets only half the time here. A c-bet is going to be about $1.50. Given how drawy the board is, others are bound to like SOMETHING about the pot, and that means that they're likely to call. If there's a c-bet and one caller, there will be $5 in the pot when it comes back to us, and check-raising all-in isn't even much of an overbet. If they both fold, we win a whopping 50 BBs -- that's half a stack! If someone calls then we're still likely ahead, though our opponent will surely have some outs. We exert maximum pressure on draws, charge them an unfair price to continue, and we get ALL the money in the middle while our hand is best. That's as good as it gets.

If instead we go ahead and bet we're likely to get a caller. When that happens we're probably going to be OOP in a now-huge pot with a hand that suffers greatly from RIO on a drawy board and two streets away from the river. That situation sucks in eight different directions, and we're probably either going to win a 50 BB pot or lose a stack -- not my favorite options.

If BOTH of our opponents check through on the flop, that sucks, and it makes the hand harder. However, I can't see that happening very often -- the pot is a large enough temptation that SOMEONE is bound to take a stab at it after all that checking in front of them. Your preflop action laid a trap -- it's not consistent or profitable to now shout "hey, look at my trap!" If you're going to smooth-call this hand preflop you're doing so for a reason, and THIS is the reason. Follow through with your plan and you will make the most money in the long run.

If you were always intending on donkbetting if you flopped TPTK then go ahead and three-bet preflop and get it over with. This "slowplay preflop, donkbet the flop" stuff is both passive and straightforward, and neither of those is profitable at the tables.

I totally understand the temptation to bet this one, but with two players (INCLUDING the preflop raiser) still to act you've got to give them a chance to either steal or protect their second best hands. It totally sucks when your plan fails, but when it works you'll make SO much more money that I believe it winds up being the most profitable approach in the long run.

This thought process is very similar to the "I've got the nuts on the river; how much do I bet?" question. Most players like to underbet the pot -- say, half-pot or less. They know they have a winner and they want to get paid, damn it. If you have tons of cash behind and if your opponent's hand might be very strong but second-best, that's usually a big mistake. A much bigger bet will get called less frequently but often it will get called frequently enough to make the LONG-RUN expectation bigger. PNL talks about this on pages 121-122 where they mention that if a $50 bet into a $100 pot gets called 80% of the time, then a $500 all-in bet only has to be called 8% of the time to be just as profitable. In their words:

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Many players have trouble with longshot odds because of "negative feedback." If your opponent calls 15 percent of the time when you go all-in for $500, that is more profitable than his calling $50 80 percent of the time. However, the all-in bet may "feel" wrong, because 85% of the time you win nothing.

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The preflop raiser might check behind -- you're right, that's undeniable, and you're taking a risk by going for the check-raise, especially with a vulnerable hand and especially on a drawy board. However, I believe the reward outweighs the risk, and if we weren't willing to take risks we wouldn't be playing poker, right?

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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Think of it this way: we've got $2.10 in the pot and four opponents. Let's say that villain c-bets only half the time here. A c-bet is going to be about $1.50. Given how drawy the board is, others are bound to like SOMETHING about the pot, and that means that they're likely to call. If there's a c-bet and one caller, there will be $5 in the pot when it comes back to us, and check-raising all-in isn't even much of an overbet. If they both fold, we win a whopping 50 BBs -- that's half a stack! If someone calls then we're still likely ahead, though our opponent will surely have some outs. We exert maximum pressure on draws, charge them an unfair price to continue, and we get ALL the money in the middle while our hand is best. That's as good as it gets.


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Our equity in this pot is going to be very different when you check raise than when you bet and get called. Villain's betting range does not equal his calling range.

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If instead we go ahead and bet we're likely to get a caller. When that happens we're probably going to be OOP in a now-huge pot with a hand that suffers greatly from RIO on a drawy board and two streets away from the river. That situation sucks in eight different directions, and we're probably either going to win a 50 BB pot or lose a stack -- not my favorite options.


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I'm not really sure why this matters given that you want to felt this hand anyways on the flop against a tighter range than if we just lead.

edit: just ouf curiousity how are you playing 99 on this flop? What about AQ of hearts?

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

pokey,

you reasoning imo is way off in this hand. I haven´t read everythjing the others said but my problem is that you assume that you have villain´s c/r calling range beat which in my experince is not the case!
Assuming that villain´s c/r calling range and their normal calling range are the same is plain wrong.
and the way i understood you is that you´re fine with stacking off here b/c the board is very wet. Stacking off here imo is nothing short of aweful.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

preflop is pretty bad, betting the flop is completely standard. Hard to say where you're at when you're raised though. I doubt i'd ever check the flop here

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

I'm sort of shocked nobody has advocated bet/folding the river? This seems like a much better line to me since we are never good when raised, but plenty of hands would call a bet that would have ordinarily checked behind had we gone for the c/c.

Also, I like the flop donk. Can't let this get checked around.

And make it 3$ PF.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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you reasoning imo is way off in this hand.


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Always a possiblity. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'm not trying to tell everybody "this is the truth, believe it or DIE." Rather, I'm suggesting a line I would take considering the atypical preflop situation.

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I haven´t read everythjing the others said but my problem is that you assume that you have villain´s c/r calling range beat which in my experince is not the case!


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As a general rule I completely agree with you. There are a few other issues to consider, however:

1. The board is VERY drawy. Your CRAI could be easily mistaken for a semibluff draw, which would get you called by weaker kings or weaker pairs looking to "snap off the bluff."

2. If nobody has anything your bet folds the lot of 'em, but your check-raise folds the lot of 'em AFTER they chip in an extra few dozen BBs.

3. Strong draws could easily semibluff this pot behind us hoping to either steal it outright or buy a free card on the turn. Those draws either call the push (giving us lots of extra money) or bet and fold (giving us lots of extra money).

4. Our hand is ridiculously underrepresented at this point: we've smooth-called a preflop bet and then checked with TPTK. Nobody is going to see us coming in advance.

5. We've actually got lots of folding equity on our push, even against hands we really don't want to play against. I would be shocked if AK or better folds, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see strong draws fold.

6. Given the nasty reverse implied odds we're suffering from, getting all the money in on the flop is better than dribbling it all in over the next few streets. If everybody folds I'm quite happy; if people call all-in on the draw I'm also happy.

7. The pot is quite large already: we're talking 1/5th of our stack. With a pot that big we've really got a strong incentive to fight like a tiger for it. A CRAI seems like a better way to take down the pot than a donkbet.

8. With a hand this strong and a pot this big I really don't want to make the huge FTOP mistake of folding the strongest hand. It's going to be VERY hard to find a way to fold if MP bets the flop, turn, and river, and considering how large the pot already is, that means I'm nearly pot committed as things already stand. I might as well make use of whatever folding equity I've got.

9. Checking *might* let me save my stack: if MP bets and someone else makes a huge raise I can consider folding, depending on the specifics.

10. If checkraises get called by tighter ranges than bets, that's not necessarily a bad thing -- after all, the pot is big enough that winning it outright is a good thing. A bet that gets called -- especially in multiple places -- puts us in an excruciating situation on the turn and river, whereas a CRAI eliminates those tough decisions.

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and the way i understood you is that you´re fine with stacking off here b/c the board is very wet. Stacking off here imo is nothing short of aweful.

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It's not that I'm "fine" with stacking off because the board is very wet. I'm never "fine" with stacking off, because I like stacks. (They give me money.) Rather, I'm saying that the pot is large enough and my hand is strong enough that it's going to be hard to avoid stacking off if I'm behind. The fact that the board is very wet makes it even harder to avoid, since semibluffs are so likely. The big pot is what really makes stacking off difficult to avoid in this situation: had the pot been limped preflop I'd agree that stacking off would be horrendous, but a pot-sized bet and a pot-sized raise is nearly all-in, so there's just not much ability to avoid playing for stacks in this situation. The only way around it is to check/fold this flop, and I think that's a huge mistake under any but the strangest of flop-betting circumstances.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

Hi.

Re: Shocking AK hand, be gentle...
 

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Hi.

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A+ gimmick.