Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

I've been playing for a few orbits, haven't shown anything down, and probably have nitty stats if he's using a HUD or anything. No real reads on the other involved players, except that they're either goddamn shortstacks or world champions.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $25/$50 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero: $5,591.00
JoeHachem: $9,186.95
ADZ124: $7,407.40
ELLA: $2,800.00
Grisen: $2,122.00
PaintedBird: $1,514.00
MENTOR 2: $4,950.00
goFISHYfishy: $3,744.00
Paylessrake: $925.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">PaintedBird raises to $185.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Paylessrake raises all-in to $925.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,665.00</font>, <font color="red">JoeHachem raises all-in to $9,186.95</font>, PaintedBird folds, Hero ?

Call or fold? Its roughly 4k to win like 8.5k, so 2:1 ish. Also, is the minreraise the best move when it comes to me the first time around?

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

Definitely looks like AQ... I CALL

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

. Realise im out of my leauge here

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

bah, didn't see the fact that paylessrake was all in the first time. i think I fold ;;

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 114030168 626394.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 172384116 626394.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 27.182% 26.96% 00.22% 44316132 366240.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 72.818% 72.60% 00.22% 119332572 366240.00 { KK+, AKs }

i call this but ive never played w joe

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

I'd fold, and I hate folding a lot.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 114030168 626394.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 172384116 626394.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 27.182% 26.96% 00.22% 44316132 366240.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 72.818% 72.60% 00.22% 119332572 366240.00 { KK+, AKs }

i call this but ive never played w joe

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ignoring the fact that you lose the main pot to the short stacker a bunch

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

just nevermind..

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

god 25/50 on stars is so dumb

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

i would fold this fast

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

insta fold

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

wtf @ the min rr?

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

dude its a 5b out of no where, this is never ever ever AK.. i mean unless he thinks this is a tournament. intsafold

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

Why did you minraise? I doubt you'd get blown off like this if Joe had QQ or smaller(which he probably did but you just don't know now) and you put in a decent 3-4x raise.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is ignoring the fact that you lose the main pot to the short stacker a bunch

[/ QUOTE ]

define a bunch

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly what i was going to type. hate the minraise.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]

Hachem NEVER has AK here ,as its either KK or AA

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

ye if you just flatcall you can get away easily, now getting 2-1 its closer but still a fold imo. also keep in mind that hachem is not a very strong player, so i wouldnt be surprised if he shows up with AK here at least sometimes

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]

Hachem NEVER has AK here ,as its either KK or AA

[/ QUOTE ]

hachem might be bad, but he's bad enough to fold ak here? srsly, i'll be damned if he doesn't have AKs sometimes and AKo as well

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]

Hachem NEVER has AK here ,as its either KK or AA

[/ QUOTE ]

hachem might be bad, but he's bad enough to fold ak here? srsly, i'll be damned if he doesn't have AKs sometimes and AKo as well

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you leveling or what? I think AK is a fold for Hachem here. Full ring sucks because it's correct to be nitty in spots like this.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would fold this fast

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
ye if you just flatcall you can get away easily, now getting 2-1 its closer but still a fold imo. also keep in mind that hachem is not a very strong player, so i wouldnt be surprised if he shows up with AK here at least sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts during the hand were that raising would almost make it easier to fold to a shove (and thus the minraise), given the amount of strength a 5-bet would indicate. If I just call, he can put me on a wider range of hands (or can he?) and perhaps shove lighter, putting me to a tougher decision.

Would you smoothcall or reraise with AA? KK? AK? And what do you think Hachem's assumption of these ranges might be? What does he put me on when I minreraise?

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]

Hachem NEVER has AK here ,as its either KK or AA

[/ QUOTE ]

hachem might be bad, but he's bad enough to fold ak here? srsly, i'll be damned if he doesn't have AKs sometimes and AKo as well

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you leveling or what? I think AK is a fold for Hachem here. Full ring sucks because it's correct to be nitty in spots like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, the fact that we're thinking about folding queens and our minraise is the weakest move we've got leads me to think hachem should shove AK here

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
ye if you just flatcall you can get away easily, now getting 2-1 its closer but still a fold imo. also keep in mind that hachem is not a very strong player, so i wouldnt be surprised if he shows up with AK here at least sometimes

[/ QUOTE ] hachem isnt a stong player? lol now thats leveling

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
god 25/50 on stars is so dumb

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya the game broke when Joe left, soon after this hand. I dont know if it was a bunch of hopefuls trying to play with a world champ, or if he was the fish in the lineup. I never play on stars so I dunno. (I just wanted to win enough that I could wire out 20k, lol) But F those shortstackers.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

Joe prob had 1010 or hooks he plays em hard all the time. And yes the ss players are crazy (littlezen)

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ignoring the fact that you lose the main pot to the short stacker a bunch

[/ QUOTE ]

define a bunch

[/ QUOTE ]
1 bunch = 4 fews.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
The minraise is especially bad because PaintedBird is so short, I'd flat call the first 1k, and then I fold this for sure to Hachem

[/ QUOTE ]
agree

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Joe prob had 1010 or hooks he plays em hard all the time. And yes the ss players are crazy (littlezen)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

I have no read on Hachem's play but I do see people including top online pros shoving with AK all the time, particularly as your min reraise looks like weakness. There are more combinations of AK than AA or KK so as we never know exactly what hand he has it makes folding here very hard when you consider the range he is on.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

easy allin

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts during the hand were that raising would almost make it easier to fold to a shove (and thus the minraise), given the amount of strength a 5-bet would indicate. If I just call, he can put me on a wider range of hands (or can he?) and perhaps shove lighter, putting me to a tougher decision.

Would you smoothcall or reraise with AA? KK? AK? And what do you think Hachem's assumption of these ranges might be? What does he put me on when I minreraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

coldcalling would be for 16% of your stack, so no one would be getting even close to the right price to try to overcall and set mine against you... so yes, you could do it with any big hand, and I think it's probably correct to just call there with any hand you want to play. No one should be making a move at you because your range is pretty strong at this point (including the nuts) and the guy that shoved in front of you should have a reasonable range as well.

as for what Hachem would think, I obviously don't know anything much about him specifically, but I think in general people are not going to be giving your min-reraise more respect than a coldcall due to what I mentioned above, and because the reraise looks like you're trying to isolate with a good, but vulnerable hand.

also, coldcalling and folding to a shove behind you is cheaper than what you did, so in order to justify the extra investment you need to believe that your reraise gives you *significantly* better information when you do face a shove. I don't think that is the case.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

nice soah, thats a good case for coldcalling

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no read on Hachem's play but I do see people including top online pros shoving with AK all the time, particularly as your min reraise looks like weakness. There are more combinations of AK than AA or KK so as we never know exactly what hand he has it makes folding here very hard when you consider the range he is on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I agree if this is a tourney...and maybe im out of my element(I play primarily 5-10 live some 2-5 and an occassionalforay into 10-20 when I take a shot)but I just dont see how AK makes a move here in a full ring game.....that is certainly more of a tournament type play IMHO.

I cringe and fold...im fairly tight though for a profitable player at these levels.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, coldcalling and folding to a shove behind you is cheaper than what you did, so in order to justify the extra investment you need to believe that your reraise gives you *significantly* better information when you do face a shove. I don't think that is the case.[ QUOTE ]


Well said

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]


coldcalling would be for 16% of your stack, so no one would be getting even close to the right price to try to overcall and set mine against you... so yes, you could do it with any big hand, and I think it's probably correct to just call there with any hand you want to play. No one should be making a move at you because your range is pretty strong at this point (including the nuts) and the guy that shoved in front of you should have a reasonable range as well.



[/ QUOTE ]

Soah, doesn't the 25, 50, 185, 925 &amp; 925 in the pot give a set miner enough 'pot + stack odds' to set mine? Just playing devil's advocate.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

when you factor in the chances of getting stacked by an overset, you need something like 11:1 with implied odds to set mine... this hand isn't even close to that

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

[ QUOTE ]
when you factor in the chances of getting stacked by an overset, you need something like 11:1 with implied odds to set mine... this hand isn't even close to that

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe im just really tired but I would like to see the math on that really fast...im probably just delirious after 40 hours of casino poker and insomnia but are you taking into account SOME frequency of non-paired hands like AK that can overset us...im just confused at this point...should we always be looking at 11-1 to set mine when you know youll stack an opponent if you hit?

I guess you end up getting oversetted or just plain beat somewhow 18% of the time right?

Im so confused where the 11-1 comes from..especially with some extra money. I must be missing something very basic here sorry.

Re: Preflop decision with ladies against hachem
 

the math was all done in some MSNL thread long ago... assuming that your opponent has an overpair 100% of the time and will always stack off with it, calling 8% of your stack preflop is the breakeven point for setmining

obviously it's hard to ever be 100% sure of anything like this when you are calling, but we're looking from the other angle, where we have a big pocket pair and we're looking to see if we're leaving ourselves vulnerable to being setmined