wages rising in China
 

Wages on the rise in China

Interesting read, looks like there is a growing labor shortage in China, and an increase in wages could have an effect on the US economy.

Re: wages rising in China
 

So all those poor, exploited workers who are "slaves" in "sweat shops" are actually having their lives, wages, and economy of their country improve thanks to the influx of capital caused by said "sweat shops?" WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED?!?!

Re: wages rising in China
 

Thanks for the post.

Re: wages rising in China
 

The idea that there is a labor shortage in China is bizarre to me considering that 80% of the population is still peasant farmers. This is likely due to government regulations keeping people from moving to the cities.

Re: wages rising in China
 

In a completely unrelated story, Mattel moves their manufacuring plants to astonia.....

Re: wages rising in China
 

iron, the article seems to indicate that most young adults are going to college instead of taking these [censored] entry level manufacturing jobs. It does sound surprising. The article also thought that the limit on the number of children a family could have is also a factor. Finally, they did look at some of the rural towns, but anecdotal evidence seems to imply these towns don't have any potential workers in them anymore.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a completely unrelated story, Mattel moves their manufacuring plants to astonia.....

[/ QUOTE ]I don't understand this post. I assume you mean Estonia, but that's a much, much higher wage country than China.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a completely unrelated story, Mattel moves their manufacuring plants to astonia.....

[/ QUOTE ]I don't understand this post. I assume you mean Estonia, but that's a much, much higher wage country than China.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I was just making up a name that sounded like it was in the stone age. You know that once China is sucked dry and they demand real money, they will just move somewhere else.

Re: wages rising in China
 

Africa

Re: wages rising in China
 

Most likely. But then who else when we finally start giving those pesky africans enough for food and a modern life?

Re: wages rising in China
 

Robots.

Re: wages rising in China
 

That doesn't leave the workers much of an option....

Oh well at least the robot firms will be rich!

Re: wages rising in China
 

plus companies won't have to pay benny's.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know that once China is sucked dry and they demand real money, they will just move somewhere else.

[/ QUOTE ] Instead of being "sucked dry" they are more nearly "pumped full of money."

And at that point, they'll be the ones demanding cheap foreign labor--they'll be just like us.

Re: wages rising in China
 

They are while the corps can still use them. When they can't, they'll move on.

Re: wages rising in China
 

So if wages are rising, it must be because they raised the minimum wage, right?

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
They are while the corps can still use them. When they can't, they'll move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

With his posts throughout this thread, Tom has done an excellent job of showing off the classic fallacy of zero-sum economics thinking.

natedogg

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
With his posts throughout this thread, Tom has done an excellent job of showing off the classic fallacy of zero-sum economics thinking.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. Now please point out why this won't happen?

Re: wages rising in China
 

Partly yes, partly no:

http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/en/we...ticle_id=50226

Re: wages rising in China
 

When the Chinese government, under Deng, first decided to go capitalist, it opened up the southern coastal areas as test areas for the new economics. Almost all the coutryside peasants who migrated, either legally or illegally, went there. Now, with other areas, particular those around Shanghai, opened up to capitalist enterprise, there is much greater competition for the peasant worker in other areas of the country. Note that the bicycle factory example in the article was a company located in Shenzhen, just outside of Hong Kong, the first boom area in China. With Shanghai now the new boom area, it stands to reason that labor is harder to come by in Shenzhen.

When I first went into China, probably around 1990, the train station in Guangzhou was a scene right out of a movie--thousands of people milling around, looking for work, many of them finding it. No more. The combination of the competition of other areas, plus a population being more educated and thus not as interested, in the aggregate, in factory work, has meant increasing labor scarcity and thus higher wages.

More rigidly enforced labor and environmental standards will also mean higher prices for China goods for Americans. Many of the bigger companies, however, will follow cheap labor to Vietnam or India or ???.

Re: wages rising in China
 

Companies relocating from China to other countries with lower wage rates and other lower costs is already happening. At one time, there were 800 shoe factories in New England; then they went to Taiwan; thence to China; and I know several that are planning to go to Vietnam.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
At one time, there were 800 shoe factories in New England; then they went to Taiwan; thence to China; and I know several that are planning to go to Vietnam.


[/ QUOTE ] Is this a bad thing or a good thing, in your opinion?

Re: wages rising in China
 

New England is a pretty well off place, Taiwan became a well off place after that, China and Vietnam are doing the same.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
Companies relocating from China to other countries with lower wage rates and other lower costs is already happening. At one time, there were 800 shoe factories in New England; then they went to Taiwan; thence to China; and I know several that are planning to go to Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There's no loyalty in buisness other than to the bottom line. The point in which it becomes more profitable to move, the companies will move. Until then, they stay.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Is this a bad thing or a good thing, in your opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you weren't asking me, but I'll answer anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Basically, it depends on who you are. If you're a Chinese worker, it's good until they leave. When they leave, you'll probably have raised your standard of living. That's a good thing.

If you're in Vietnam, you're gaining jobs. That's a good thing as well.

If you're big buisness, cutting out expenses is the biggest (only!) thing. So it's good for them too.

The only people it's bad for are the people losing their jobs who can no longer afford the products. We're not there yet, but we're approaching it rapidly.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only people it's bad for are the people losing their jobs who can no longer afford the products. We're not there yet, but we're approaching it rapidly.

[/ QUOTE ] Are these the Chinese people who might lose their jobs or the Americans who lost their jobs x years ago?

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only people it's bad for are the people losing their jobs who can no longer afford the products. We're not there yet, but we're approaching it rapidly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the part where you are confused.

natedogg

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are these the Chinese people who might lose their jobs or the Americans who lost their jobs x years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's us who lost the jobs years ago but are now being unable to afford the products. Sooner or later all the debt is going to drag them down. (Their debt, not the national debt, which will probably help in dragging them down)

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only people it's bad for are the people losing their jobs who can no longer afford the products. We're not there yet, but we're approaching it rapidly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the part where you are confused.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

So please tell me why instead of just saying it........

Re: wages rising in China
 

Bad for the people who lost their jobs. Good for most everyon else.

Re: wages rising in China
 

Yeah, probably, as I said in another response, bad for the people who lost their jobs, but overall good for everyone else. I've seen the standard of living in South China skyrocket for people there. [Not to say there aren't problems (Deng said, "When you open the door, flies come in.") inherent in the process.]

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are these the Chinese people who might lose their jobs or the Americans who lost their jobs x years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's us who lost the jobs years ago but are now being unable to afford the products. Sooner or later all the debt is going to drag them down. (Their debt, not the national debt, which will probably help in dragging them down)

[/ QUOTE ]If enough people can't afford the products, then there won't be a demand for international cheap labor in the first place--the cheap labor will be at home. This is mostly a self-regulating problem.

I'll admit there are losers in the globalization process, but I can't ignore the multitude of humanity that has been helped by it.

Re: wages rising in China
 

The whole globalization process's effects can't be clearly defined IMO.

People in the US (and other countries) lose their jobs, which is [censored]. These jobs move to developing countries, which is a good thing for these countries. But these developing countries also have horrible labor and environmental laws which hurt a lot of people.

A question I would pose, is globalization a necessary "evil" for those of us in 1st world countries, and do the positives of this globalization counteract the negatives.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
If enough people can't afford the products, then there won't be a demand for international cheap labor in the first place--the cheap labor will be at home. This is mostly a self-regulating problem.

I'll admit there are losers in the globalization process, but I can't ignore the multitude of humanity that has been helped by it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that the "cheap labor will be at home". For companies to move their jobs back here, they'd need to see a financial reason to do it. Paying people .15/hr is pretty tough to beat.......

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
The whole globalization process's effects can't be clearly defined IMO.

People in the US (and other countries) lose their jobs, which is [censored]. These jobs move to developing countries, which is a good thing for these countries. But these developing countries also have horrible labor and environmental laws which hurt a lot of people.

A question I would pose, is globalization a necessary "evil" for those of us in 1st world countries, and do the positives of this globalization counteract the negatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these places mistreat workers, how bad do you think their lives were BEFORE they started working there if they actually chose to do this.

Re: wages rising in China
 

heh, they might have been broke, but they weren't "battered".

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole globalization process's effects can't be clearly defined IMO.

People in the US (and other countries) lose their jobs, which is [censored]. These jobs move to developing countries, which is a good thing for these countries. But these developing countries also have horrible labor and environmental laws which hurt a lot of people.

A question I would pose, is globalization a necessary "evil" for those of us in 1st world countries, and do the positives of this globalization counteract the negatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these places mistreat workers, how bad do you think their lives were BEFORE they started working there if they actually chose to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a bad logic path as industrialization has for the most part destroyed much of the way of life of rural societies.

An example close to home, although dated: You couldn't compare how great it is to work in an Omaha factory to not working in an Omaha factory but living off the land instead if the industrialization and commercial agriculture of the plains has destroyed the game and natural resources which would have permitted a very satisfying existence. Read anything about China and you'll learn that industrialization has destroyed clean water areas, wiped out species of fish and game that people relied on for generations, and made it impossible to get along as was done for thousands of years before.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
heh, they might have been broke, but they weren't "battered".

[/ QUOTE ]

So why did they choose this? If they are enslaved or force is used against them, I am 100% with you.

Re: wages rising in China
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
heh, they might have been broke, but they weren't "battered".

[/ QUOTE ]

So why did they choose this? If they are enslaved or force is used against them, I am 100% with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

They chose it because industrialization has made their previous way of life impossible. You are classifying the problem as the solution, because the problem has destroyed the other solutions (ironically, you vehemently fight against this error when it comes to government, but not when it comes to global economic development).

-----------------------------
China's economic boom is dramatically changing [its] environmental landscape—polluting the water and air, desertifying the land, and diminishing the country's natural resources at terrifying rates," said Elizabeth Economy, the director of Asia Studies at the New York City-based Council of Foreign Relations.

...

Almost all of the nation's rivers are considered polluted to some degree, and half of the population lacks access to clean drinking water. Ninety percent of urban water bodies are severely polluted. ... severe water scarcity in Northern China is a serious threat to sustained economic growth and has forced the government to begin implementing a largescale diversion of water from the Yangtze River to northern cities, including Beijing and Tianjin.

...

Acid rain falls on 30% of the country. China environmental laws are among the strictest in the world, but enforcing these laws has been difficult in China. The World Health Organization has found that about 750,000 people die prematurely each year from respiratory problems in China.

...

Shanxi Province is the heart of China's coal industry. Coal provides about two-thirds of the nation's energy, and China's urgent need for more energy has led to hundreds of coal mines springing up here. These unregulated and illegal mines have ravaged the already denuded mountains and polluted what's left of the groundwater in this dry and dusty province.

...

According to an 18-month study released recently by the Organisation for EconomicPolluted river- Songhuajiang Co-operation and Development (OECD) and previous exposed World Bank report, here’s some numbers showing the deadly pollution of air, water, land and the health status in China: 1. “highly polluted” water, covering: 1/3 the length of all China’s rivers, 75% of its major lakes, 25% of all its coastal waters.

...

27% of the landmass of the country is now becoming desertified

...

Nearly 70% of the rural population has no access to safe sanitation.

...

Approximately 28 percent of China’s landmass has been stripped due to deforestation and soil erosion. Desertification has also been taking place due to extensive dryness in land. Land has also been destroyed due to acid rain. Polluted land is expanding by approximately two million hectares each year. Land is also heavily polluted with heavy metals and toxic substances. About 90 percent of China’s grasslands have been degraded to varying degrees. Solid waste disposal has also been serious problem...

...

Statistics show that more than 130,000 hectares of farmland have been damaged by industrial solid waste, and over 5.3 million hectares of land are affected by air pollution.

...

"If you have a common good like clean air or water or land or a forest, and one player, like a local official or a company that's in league with the local government, starts abusing it, there is not only the damage caused by that actor, but of course, everybody else then says, 'Well, if they're going to do that, why should I play by the rules?' And pretty soon everybody is chopping down trees or dumping waste into the river or operating a backyard zinc smelter."

...

The relationship between the central government and local governments causes problems in another way. For the past quarter century, Beijing has rewarded and promoted local officials based almost entirely on the economic growth in their areas. That's prompted local officials to push for ever more development, no matter the cost to the environment.