FU river
 

CO is 29/22/2.2 and solid Button is 60/12/1.4 and stupid. SB is unknown.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (16SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (14.5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (16.5BB, 2 players)
Hero cries

Re: FU river
 

i check/call here. the pot is too big to fold anyway and he might bluff or valuebet a worse hand.

Re: FU river
 

As played I check/call.

Such an ugly hand though, is the SHLH on AP usually like this?

Re: FU river
 

I would check and call.

It's an obvious defensive check, so if he bets, you're almost surely screwed, but I would call anyway at this point.

I mean, a check-fold is probably better, but how often does a situation quite like this one even come up?

As for the river card, well, it sucks, but, FWIW, it's possible you weren't winning anyway.

I suppose you could consider firing one last bet as a bluff in the hopes that he'll fold a diamondless AA or something, but I seriously doubt it will work.

Re: FU river
 

Fairly standard c/c IMO.

He could easily have 88-TT without a diamond. I seriously doubt he will bluff those enough to make a call + EV but the pot is just too big to c/f.

Re: FU river
 

CO is 29/22/2.2

Bet or C-F.

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
CO is 29/22/2.2

Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense to me. Could you please tell me the secret behind the bet? Specifically which worse hands do you think will call and/or which better hands do you think will fold?

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fairly standard c/c IMO.

He could easily have 88-TT without a diamond. I seriously doubt he will bluff those enough to make a call + EV but the pot is just too big to c/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

If u think a call is -EV why do you call then because the Pot i so big?

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fairly standard c/c IMO.

He could easily have 88-TT without a diamond. I seriously doubt he will bluff those enough to make a call + EV but the pot is just too big to c/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

If u think a call is -EV why do you call then because the Pot i so big?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I cant help my self.

Re: FU river
 

ok

Re: FU river
 

BTW. I shouldnt have said "I doubt its +EV" but "I am not sure its +EV"

Would you ever fold in this spot?

Re: FU river
 

not vs unknown, vs a good player yes since he cannot expect me to fold AA KK in this big Pot wich he should realize are the only Hands i can have here.

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you ever fold in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]not vs unknown, vs a good player yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Paging Ed Miller..

Isn't this like really bad? When pot is this huge laying 17:1 odds you just dont fold. One bet is like a check, insignificant. Doesn't really matter much if the villain is good or not IMO.

Re: FU river
 

If youre always behind when villain bets you loose 1 BB no matter if the Pot is 5 10 or 15 BB. Looking at it in a vacoum yes it looks bad but but in rality Pot odds are sometime overrated&gt; meaning villain would/should never bluff a worse hand if hes good. I dunno if i could fold but iam certainly sure that i always loose 1 BB if i call.

What range do you put CO on after his Turn call?

Re: FU river
 

6% chance to win is enough. I don't really think about hand ranges at this point, misclick equity combined with retard equity is enough [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you think about it from villain's point of view, if he has a crap hand isn't it worth to try to bluff, even for that tiny 6% FE?

Re: FU river
 

u just see ur 6% or 17:1 and stop thinking, not that theres something wrong with that

Re: FU river
 

Am I bad for bluffing 88-TT on the river in villains spot? I would do that against quite a few players.

Re: FU river
 

if medium pps are in villains range i would bluff too

Im just pointing out that no one would fold AA KK and therefore a good player cant expect to be succesfull with a bluff, but maybe iam overthinking the situation

Re: FU river
 

c/c

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I bad for bluffing 88-TT on the river in villains spot? I would do that against quite a few players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bluff hands that can't beat AK but don't bother with 88-TT cuz anything better is showing down in my limited experience (lets be honest this situation doesn't come up all that often).

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paging Ed Miller..

Isn't this like really bad? When pot is this huge laying 17:1 odds you just dont fold. One bet is like a check, insignificant. Doesn't really matter much if the villain is good or not IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Yes, learning to fold correctly on the river is an important skill. If you call routinely with hopeless hands, you have a big problem...

...For instance, just last night I folded K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board for a single bet, closing the action in a 23BB pot." --Ed Miller

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import

Re: FU river
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Yes, learning to fold correctly on the river is an important skill. If you call routinely with hopeless hands, you have a big problem...

...For instance, just last night I folded K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board for a single bet, closing the action in a 23BB pot." --Ed Miller


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Lol'd @ this quote.

[ QUOTE ]

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice find. That thread is actually very interesting and relevant for this current discussion.

I guess the original idea of that Ed Miller simplification of never folding river in a big pot is that if you are not sure, for example villain is complete retard and is actually bluffing 50% of time with air, you are making a huge mistake and it's not close. You have to really know your opponent to make this read accurately enough that the decision is close. I'm not so good and so I will make these calls if not only for peace of mind.