a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

you're in SB, the table fish in BB, and some lagtag regular jerk opens CO/button, so you 3-bet especially light to keep regular from having a shot at fish's stack. If fish happens to call, then YOU have a stack at his stack.

thoughts?

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

DJ sensei theorem?

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

will this not very often lead to the fish folding and you playing OOP vs regular? If u just call there is a bigger chance that the fish will stay in the pot. But if he is a very big fish who will call a 3-bet preflop with a ton of hands this is a good idea.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

Doing this will only make yourself a fish

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

do this more by wide 3 betting tag's isolating limping fish

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

i speak for jerk lagtag reg bastards by saying nay

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

well its kind of already used. like fish limps, tag isolates him, you 3bet from the blinds with crap because you take it down a lot.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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do this more by wide 3 betting tag's isolating limping fish

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I like this also oop, but IP i kinda like calling behind playable hands to bring the fish along for the ride

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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will this not very often lead to the fish folding and you playing OOP vs regular?

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I'm not saying do it to excess, i'm just suggesting stretching your range in that spot might not be a bad idea.

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If u just call there is a bigger chance that the fish will stay in the pot. But if he is a very big fish who will call a 3-bet preflop with a ton of hands this is a good idea.

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So long as your 3betting range is not too far behind his coldcalling range, i guess.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

you can definitely widen your range a touch in these situations, but mostly because the tag is more likely to be unable to stand a reraise. I never considered the future equity you gain from preserving the fishes stack, but it's a neat idea... i like it.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

My first impression was wow if we are seriously looking for edges this small we are all in big trouble. It a goodish idea but a little impracticle.

I think any edge gained here is going to be super thin, also it may have the converse effect of pissing off the fish because they never get to see a flop and GAMBOOOOLLL.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

I do this a lot but don`t know if it`s worth it tbh.

Edit: We are talking about immediate EV- situations here, right? Not just adjusting ranges because sb is likely to be opening light.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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My first impression was wow if we are seriously looking for edges this small we are all in big trouble. It a goodish idea but a little impracticle.

I think any edge gained here is going to be super thin, also it may have the converse effect of pissing off the fish because they never get to see a flop and GAMBOOOOLLL.

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yea i wonder if its not worth it because fish like to see flops and this keeps them from doing it. but that can be said for all 3-betting, of course.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

I agree it's probably too thin of an edge to theoretically shift re-steal profitability even one notch e.g. from 56s to 46s or whatever....

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

It may become profitable when the fish and the opener is deep and you aren`t. I would repop with complete garbage in this situation if BT is opening really light.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

i like it

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

taking such edges into considerations (e.g. turning a hand that is 0ev to 3bet with into a +ev hand by protecting someone from losing chips to someone else) leads to talking about metagame aspects vs the reg and so on.
what im talking about is, i think its zero-sum game.
edit: what i like is the idea of 3betting wider since a regular is gonna open a lot vs the fish, but that was obvious, i guess.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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My first impression was wow if we are seriously looking for edges this small we are all in big trouble. It a goodish idea but a little impracticle.

I think any edge gained here is going to be super thin, also it may have the converse effect of pissing off the fish because they never get to see a flop and GAMBOOOOLLL.

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yea i wonder if its not worth it because fish like to see flops and this keeps them from doing it. but that can be said for all 3-betting, of course.

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I hate playing in games with tons of 3 betting, and im sure the fish feel the same way

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

you're in the wrong seat

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

What is the value, to you, of the TAG getting a shot at the fish's stack?

Let's say the fish is really bad, -25ptBB/100. He loses one small blind per hand on average. There is no reason to think this hand will be particularly good or bad for him, so let's say you can expect him to lose 1SB on average this hand (in addition to the 2SB he will lose if you 3 bet and he folds).

How much is it worth to you to have that extra 1SB in the fish's stack? Let's say he is destined to lose all his money at the table, and everybody else at the 6-handed table has an equal shot at it (in reality you have less of a shot since you are on his right). Then keeping the fish out of the TAG's way is worth <u>one fifth of a SB</u> to you.

Ignoring the fish, 3 betting the TAG much more liberally is surely going to cost you much more than this. If the fish is so bad that this strategy becomes worthwhile, it must be just as good to just call more in this spot and get in a pot with the fish at all costs.

Right?

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

Dont think a loose-bad player behind should make you more likely to reraise a weak hand as your steal equity goes down.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

I don't think i like this much.

Either

1) the fish folds and we end up playing junk OOP against a regular (assuming he starts to give our 3bets less respect, which is likely)

2) the fish calls and the reg folds leaving us OOP against a bad player where we are going to need to hit a hand to continue as we are unlikely to 'outplay' (bluff him out) him if he is a fish

3) the fish AND the reg call in which case we will prob c/f unless we make a hand

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

RoundTower makes an excellent point.

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I hate playing in games with tons of 3 betting, and im sure the fish feel the same way

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah I think fish hate getting 3bet all the time and not see a flop. So if it were to piss of fish so much they'd switch to blackjack (where there's no 3betting going on) it may even be EV- to 3bet a wide range long-term. But I don't think the fish will be that pissed off.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

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why would i want to fold the fish out with a strong hand?!

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

It depends on the kind of fish, but most fish hate to fold (preflop and postflop). So I hate this theorem, and think it is backwards.

I agree with the following:
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I don't think i like this much.

Either

1) the fish folds and we end up playing junk OOP against a regular (assuming he starts to give our 3bets less respect, which is likely)

2) the fish calls and the reg folds leaving us OOP against a bad player where we are going to need to hit a hand to continue as we are unlikely to 'outplay' (bluff him out) him if he is a fish

3) the fish AND the reg call in which case we will prob c/f unless we make a hand

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Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

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why would i want to fold the fish out with a strong hand?!

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you don't. however, you don't really want to play AA OOP against two players do you? plus there's a greater than average chance that fish cold-calls.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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What is the value, to you, of the TAG getting a shot at the fish's stack?

Let's say the fish is really bad, -25ptBB/100. He loses one small blind per hand on average. There is no reason to think this hand will be particularly good or bad for him, so let's say you can expect him to lose 1SB on average this hand (in addition to the 2SB he will lose if you 3 bet and he folds).

How much is it worth to you to have that extra 1SB in the fish's stack? Let's say he is destined to lose all his money at the table, and everybody else at the 6-handed table has an equal shot at it (in reality you have less of a shot since you are on his right). Then keeping the fish out of the TAG's way is worth <u>one fifth of a SB</u> to you.

Ignoring the fish, 3 betting the TAG much more liberally is surely going to cost you much more than this. If the fish is so bad that this strategy becomes worthwhile, it must be just as good to just call more in this spot and get in a pot with the fish at all costs.

Right?

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I think your last statement is correct (that it might be just as good to call and get in the pot), but how you get there is flawed.

I wouldn't try to evenly distribute a fish's losses over all of his hands (i.e. -1sb/hand). I would think of it more as a fish has a higher probability of going broke on any particular hand. Calling stations are more likely to go further with their hands, thus leading to more big losses (and bigger wins). Thus, we have fat tails...

So, because the probability of our fish going broke is higher than normal on any given hand, we want to be in the pot. We also want to keep him around long enough to put ourselves in a position to play pots with him and stack him. Add in the fact that good players should be opening up thier ranges in LP when the fish is in the blinds, and I believe that a healthy mix of 3betting and calling is the way to go.

Perhaps another interesting question - assume fish is in BB and TAG opener is in CO. Would you rather 3bet or call from the btn or the sb?

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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i like it

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ya ummm this should seem kind of obvious to a good player, its something that is intuitive, almost liek a relex, when a bad player is paying pots u should want to play them against him

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

uhh well this works but not so much to protect the fish's stack, much more because the TAG has a pretty loose raising range to iso the fish, so you will win the pot a whole lot

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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uhh well this works but not so much to protect the fish's stack, much more because the TAG has a pretty loose raising range to iso the fish, so you will win the pot a whole lot

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while this is true, this is totally not what OP has been talking about.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

i've been adjusting the other way - if i'm on the fence between calling and 3betting the LAG and there's a fish in the BB i tend to call to bring the fish along. i don't get a shot at the fish for myself, but i'd much rather me and the LAG get a shot at the fish together than i 3bet the fish out of the pot and just play the LAG.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

If fish calls, i think lagtag jerk will often have odds to cal aswell. Suddenly your OOP in a 3bet multiway pot with a marginal hand.

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

o wait i completely misunderstood this i figured the fish was the one rasing the button, this makes absolutely no sense at all, the fish can always rebuy so i dont really like it. Also the good lag player will call in positon sometimes fold sometimes, hell be able to outplay u most of the time probably

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

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i've been adjusting the other way - if i'm on the fence between calling and 3betting the LAG and there's a fish in the BB i tend to call to bring the fish along. i don't get a shot at the fish for myself, but i'd much rather me and the LAG get a shot at the fish together than i 3bet the fish out of the pot and just play the LAG.

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oh you can still do this as well

Re: a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs
 

Reraising your cards in the upper 50% of their range seems reasonable a bit to get them to tighten up.