KK and terrible flop
 

played 35 hands with villian: 42/6/0.6
seems like loose passive playaaa...

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.15/$0.25 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

Button (35.65)
SB (24.25)
BB (23.25)
MP2 (25.00)
MP3 (47.00)
CO (5.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $0.50</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP2 calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( $5.4 )
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.00</font>, MP2 calls $3.00,

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( $11.4 )
hero?

A)check

c/f then?
or
c/c then?

B) another barrel

b/f?
or
if he calls u chek the river or bet again?

what are ur suggestions?

thanx

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

wow that sucks...

your bet on the flop is ok.
I think I would just check the turn and fold to a decent sized bet. If he bets half the pot or less I call. Sameon river. but dont know if thats good...

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Make it 3 pf due to being oop and 3 handed. I would probably bet like 4 on the flop as 3 just seems weak to me and after that I shut down.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I don't think you could get this type of player fold an ace and he is unlikely to want to put much money in with anything we beat so I like c/f. Theres way better spots against these types of calling stations.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Thought exercise for Pat, Profish and others:

Why c-bet here? What do we accomplish?

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Make it 3 pf due to being oop and 3 handed. I would probably bet like 4 on the flop as 3 just seems weak to me and after that I shut down.

[/ QUOTE ]

C-bet the flop b/c low limit players bluff at paired flops like... every time. With a flop this threatening, it's true that he might not call unless he has us beat (or maybe a SD), but it's certainly better than checking and have him c-bet like... 70% of the time, thus not offering us any real information as to the strength of his hand

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
C-bet the flop b/c low limit players bluff at paired flops like... every time. With a flop this threatening, it's true that he might not call unless he has us beat

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely good reason to c/c. Your hand has decent SD value but you're not getting any money out of worse hands by betting the flop. Furthermore, it's not like he's going to be improving on a board like this. I check the flop for pot control and call one bet, and I fold if he bets again; a 42/6/.6 doesn't have the cojones to double barrel you without an ace or a ten.

I also put in a bet on the turn or river to try and get value out of worse pocket pairs when checked back to.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Played fine... turn is EZ give up... He has A6o. Seen this a billion times.. He isnt folding it either BTW

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I don't like c/c and then checking it down- betting 4 on the flop probably makes him fold those lower pocket pairs. i think it's even more unlikely for 42/6/.6 to call a bet on the flop with a hand like 88 and then fire once again on the turn or river after we shut down than it is for him to double barrel. seems like a good place for him to check behind. I agree with folding if he fires on turn or river.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I never c-bet here against unknowns and bad players. Turning your hand into a bluff against calling stations when you have SD value is bad, and why do you want to make him fold those low pocket pairs? Because you're going to get stacked when they hit their two-outer?

Checking flop makes it more like for you to be called with some sort of garbage gutshot on the turn or a low pocket pair; it's nonsensical, but fish do it.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thought exercise for Pat, Profish and others:

Why c-bet here? What do we accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you not c-bet here? Its horrible not to.. U then have no idea where your at. what would u rather do check call? we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does. If he does call we know we are beat. I don't see any reason not to c-bet and further more find it disgusting and wrong..

Happy Thanksgiving BTW [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never c-bet here against unknowns and bad players. Turning your hand into a bluff against calling stations when you have SD value is bad, and why do you want to make him fold those low pocket pairs? Because you're going to get stacked when they hit their two-outer?

Checking flop makes it more like for you to be called with some sort of garbage gutshot on the turn or a low pocket pair; it's nonsensical, but fish do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In position i think this has merit

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking flop makes it more like for you to be called with some sort of garbage gutshot on the turn or a low pocket pair; it's nonsensical, but fish do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it's more likely for you to get called on the turn if you bet with some sort of garbage? Not sure what you're saying...

Edit: I think what gestalt is trying to do on the flop with a bet is define our hand. He's saying by getting called by an A or T let's us know that we're beat, and we can then confidently and accurately fold to further betting

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just dont understand why any of u have a desire to continue on with this hand... is it b/c u don't want to fold ur big pp? if we are ahead its marginal at best.. yes were playing a fish but there are better spots.. like if u had the A or T here.. i think a huge % of the time villain has Ax here. Just give up.. there is no reason to get urself into marginal spots like this

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Can I go ahead and ask what shattered meant by "turning your hand into a bluff"? I've seen it a few times but i'm not entirely sure what it implies. Thanks

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly this isn't an ideal situation, only getting called when we're behind, but that by itself doesn't make it wrong.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly this isn't an ideal situation, only getting called when we're behind, but that by itself doesn't make it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure what your saying? are you saying u think its good to c-bet here?

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I c-bet here because I also c-bet if I had an ace. If Im in position I check behind. Yes I realize a c-bet turns our hand into a bluff, but so what? Were not trying to get value really out of anything. Were trying to take the pot down now. C/c is pretty bad here as youre going to have villain fire at you with a large part of his range but the problem is he could easily fire the turn again. I guess c/f isnt terrible either but he is probably just as scared of the ace as we are often enough.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I c-bet here because I also c-bet if I had an ace. If Im in position I check behind. Yes I realize a c-bet turns our hand into a bluff, but so what? Were not trying to get value really out of anything. Were trying to take the pot down now. C/c is pretty bad here as youre going to have villain fire at you with a large part of his range but the problem is he could easily fire the turn again. I guess c/f isnt terrible either but he is probably just as scared of the ace as we are often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT thank you

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I c-bet here because I also c-bet if I had an ace. If Im in position I check behind. Yes I realize a c-bet turns our hand into a bluff, but so what? Were not trying to get value really out of anything. Were trying to take the pot down now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet here every time if I have an ace as well. I also bet if I have Q high, a pair of 4s, whatever, you have a ton of fold equity. I don't bet here with a pair of kings. Do you see the difference? Kings have showdown value and don't need to bet for protection. I bet jacks here, but never kings.

Why are you trying to take down the pot now? There's few reasons to break the Fundamental Theorem of Poker and allow your opponent to play perfectly, and the one that everyone seems to be saying is to prevent you from making a mistake on later streets (as evidenced by people saying you have to bet to find out where you are.) The thing is, it's almost impossible to make a larger mistake later: It's not like you're going to be calling 2 PSBs. In fact, you get the same amount of information for the same amount of money after villain's turn action. Keeping the pot small and take it to showdown, maybe throwing in one valuebet or calling one bet along the way, is much better than trying to win just what's in the pot now by essentially bluffing at it.

[ QUOTE ]
C/c is pretty bad here as youre going to have villain fire at you with a large part of his range but the problem is he could easily fire the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong. It takes a special type of player to double barrel bluff a board this dry, and villain is the polar opposite of that player.

It seems to me that everyone's so terrified of not knowing whether their hand is good or not that they just want to bet, getting the information at the cost of a lot of EV.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

You just contradicted yourself. You said you agree with betting but now you dont because youre getting the info at the cost of alot of EV. Betting here allows you to set the price of the hand and ideally take the pot down. It doesnt take a special type of player to double barrel, he could have a weak ace and think its good, which it is. So you check the flop, face a psb and fold. Or you can bet the flop your size, get folds sometimes, and fold to a raise. You got better info by betting and the times you pick up the pot by being aggressive negate the times you get raised.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I would bet here like everytime as fish will call gutshot str8 draws and also check them behind. By not betting you are giving them the opportunity to catch a free card when in reality you can make that extra bet from them every time their gutshot doesn't make it. This is a clear bet as it is for info and value as well.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

With bet and c/c you lose one bet if you are beat but with c/c you win a bet if he bluffs, so why is c/c so bad?

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I give up. I'm fairly sure no one's even reading my posts. Profish, you seem to be just skimming for buzzwords as you seem to have gotten every point of my post wrong. Maybe that's my fault for presenting my point of view unclearly, but stuff like how you could think I was referring to him betting twice with an ace when I clearly said double barrel _bluff_ is beyond me.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I dont skim through your post, I analyze each part. Ahh forget it it seems like every post I make you think is wrong so just ignore my advice then please.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

HappyElephant.. c/c is bad here because this player doesn't bluff often enough. His AF is 0.6.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

c/f or c/c this flop is so bad. A LP player is calling our continuation bets with most anything, straight draws and pocket pairs included. Just because it's a 3bet pot and an A shows up, it doesn't necessarily mean villain has an A. JJ and QQ probably call this flop too.

That being said, your flop bet is too small. I hope you don't usually continuation bet 56% of the pot. This just smells like a bluff. You should be betting at least 3.75, I probably bet 4.

The turn is a little more tricky. He has an extremely low aggression factor, and he just called your flop bet. I think it was Pokey that said that when it comes to aggression factors, it's plays that seem out of the ordinary you have to watch for. With an AF that low, him calling your c-bet defines almost nothing except the fact that he likes his hand: he could have JQ, KJ, 99, JJ, QQ, AQ, or even a 10. Calling is just what he does. I think with most of these hands, given his low aggression, he probably checks behind the turn. A 10 or strong A probably bets, but the others either try for a free card, or try for showdown ASAP.

If he checks behind, and the river is a blank, c/c a reasonable bet (at this point he may try to either valuebet/bluff his JJ/QQ/99/KJ.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I'm with Shattered on this one, his thoughts are spot in imo.

Yes I bet an ace here, as I do with 44 or 76s. However, sometimes I'll check the flop with AK, checking more often with AA, sometimes checking a T too.

C/C lets him bluff at it if he's beat, and your average villain is not betting 2 streets here without an A or T.

If we bet, he may call with his 99 or w/e. We're forced to check the turn, and he may turn his hand into a bluff on turn.

It gets said a lot on these forums and it's true - we're not looking to make the hand easier to play, , we're looking to make the most +EV play. I can't see how betting this flop is the most +EV.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I don't think everything you post is wrong, in fact I respect a lot of your advice. I just don't feel the need to respond to the ones I agree with. I'll give it one more try.

Your line: Bet/fold flop, check/fold turn, check/fold river.

My line: Check/call flop, check/fold turn and check/fold river. Maybe throw in a valuebet on the turn or river if flop went check/check.

First off, reasons to bet as opposed to check.
1. For protection. Villain has at most 4 outs and isn't going to be stacking you even if he hits.
2. For value. No worse hand calls.
3. As a bluff. No better hand folds
4. For information. This alone is usually not enough to bet anyways. In this case, it most definitely is not, as you get THE SAME INFORMATION when you check/call: Another bet means he has you beat.

In both cases, you've invested the same amount of money after the flop and you're not going to be putting in any more, as villain will virtually never be betting twice without you crushed. The only difference is, in my scenario, sometimes you're still ahead after the flop. In your line, you never are.

With that, I'm done with this thread.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

2. For value. No worse hand calls.
3. As a bluff. No better hand folds


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with both of these. I think worse hands can call a flop bet, and I think even the dumbest of dumb players can lay down a garbage A occassionally.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Sorry. I should have been more clear about #2. You're most certainly right, but you can get the value out of lower PPs and K high on later streets anyways. In fact, you're more likely to do so (on top of the times they catch a lower pair) so a flop check is still better.

For #3, I've never seen a loose and passive donk fold a pair of aces to one bet. Three barrels maybe, but not for one.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

No offense but this forum is so backwards sometimes. I posted a hand almost identical to this about two weeks ago where I was with KK oop and I checked. I had every person criticize me telling me how I MUST bet oop as villain could put me to the test with whatever. Everyone said if I was in position I could check behind. Now, I follow and post the same advice that was given to me by numerous people on a very very close hand and everyone now says checking oop is optimal. How can someone give strategy advice if they flip their opinion every hand? Thats ridiculous imo. This is not to accuse you shattered or baintz or whoever, its just an observation.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
No offense but this forum is so backwards sometimes. I posted a hand almost identical to this about two weeks ago where I was with KK oop and I checked. I had every person criticize me telling me how I MUST bet oop as villain could put me to the test with whatever. Everyone said if I was in position I could check behind. Now, I follow and post the same advice that was given to me by numerous people on a very very close hand and everyone now says checking oop is optimal. How can someone give strategy advice if they flip their opinion every hand? Thats ridiculous imo. This is not to accuse you shattered or baintz or whoever, its just an observation.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft. I'd love to see what ama, orange, pokey, aj, emc, or one of the other oldtimers thinks about this general situation

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Could you link me? I went rooting through your post history and couldn't find the thread in question.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

to me it's an easy bet because his AF is 0.6 and this means he probably won't fold and won't raise. if his AF was more than 1.0 sure a check here is optimal. But against someone who will call with nothing or a gutshot, this is an easy bet IMO.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Im busy right now but if I have a chance I will try to find it later. It was from at least 2 weeks ago, maybe closer to a month. Noobish question but for reference later, how do I go through my own post history?

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I dont see what the issue is here you raised p/f with KK your first to act on an A high flop in a 22BB pot im betting this all day long either villan folds and you take pot or he calls and you shut it down is this not standard?
also lol @ c/c on that flop btw.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I check that flop and bet that flop. It depends on villain.
I do it with an ace and with KK.
A bet would turn our hand into bluff, but we have to do it from time to time, since we would bet here with an ace as well.
Checking is the better option imo, since we get hands like QQ, JJ, 99 to call on later streets.
But in order to stay unpredictable we have to check aces here sometimes.

c/f, if villain would bet an ace or a T only.
c/c sucks and i would never do it.
b/f if villain is a normal player.
b/c only if villain is an idiot.

c/f = b/f &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; c/c &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; b/c

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/f or c/c this flop is so bad. A LP player is calling our continuation bets with most anything, straight draws and pocket pairs included. Just because it's a 3bet pot and an A shows up, it doesn't necessarily mean villain has an A. JJ and QQ probably call this flop too.

That being said, your flop bet is too small. I hope you don't usually continuation bet 56% of the pot. This just smells like a bluff. You should be betting at least 3.75, I probably bet 4.

The turn is a little more tricky. He has an extremely low aggression factor, and he just called your flop bet. I think it was Pokey that said that when it comes to aggression factors, it's plays that seem out of the ordinary you have to watch for. With an AF that low, him calling your c-bet defines almost nothing except the fact that he likes his hand: he could have JQ, KJ, 99, JJ, QQ, AQ, or even a 10. Calling is just what he does. I think with most of these hands, given his low aggression, he probably checks behind the turn. A 10 or strong A probably bets, but the others either try for a free card, or try for showdown ASAP.

If he checks behind, and the river is a blank, c/c a reasonable bet (at this point he may try to either valuebet/bluff his JJ/QQ/99/KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. With his stats my line (with most turns and rivers) is bet check check/call..

Not C-Betting leaves me lost not knowing what to do when villian bets.