When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Under what circumstances is it more profitable to 3-bet someone as opposed to flat-calling their bet??? The question includes both in position and out of position....
Possible scenarios....

1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button, what's our move...
2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO.....
3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button.....
4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....
5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....
6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG.....
7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button....
8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO....

FYI, it is 6-max, and you range from 18/14 to 21/17
100 bb Stakes

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

1. rr
2. fold
3. fold
4. rr
5. rr
6. call
7. rr.
8. call

in alot of these hands a vary my play between rr'ing and calling. Like in hand 5 and 8 I will some times rr and some times just call.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

You'll fold getting 3.5-1 with 78s in the big blind, but cold-call a raise with position with 54s getting only 1.75-1 against the same opponent's range?


1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button

Reraise. KQs is only a big dog to AA-QQ, AK and AQ (3.7% of hands).

2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO

Fold. Here you are too easily dominated, and the big blind is yet to act.

3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button

Getting 3.5-1, this is a trivial call. With medium/low suited connectors you are less likely to be dominated. Plus, you are only making a -EV move if villian has an overpair or has you dominated (5.9% of hands). He's clearly raising more than this amount.

4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO

This one is a bit tougher, and would require some post-flop information. I tend to fold offsuit broadways that can be dominated for two bets, but if he can be stealing with any two cards (which seems to be the case), I'll often 3-bet it here.

5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO

Easy 3-bet. Unlike the last hand, you aren't dominated nearly as often here. Only a big dog to overpairs, and that's a measly 2.7% of hands while he raises 9 times that many.

6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG

From UTG? Meh. I probably fold here, sometimes cold-call if he's weak and predictable post-flop.

7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button

3-bet, for many of the same reasons mentioned above.

8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO.

45s just isn't enough hand and the pot isn't big enough to cold-call a raise with nobody else in. With a couple of other limpers, then sure, since you'll be getting at least 3-1 once the pre-flop betting ends.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Ego.. Flatcalling 78s in blinds in a HU pot where you are playing OOP is a crappy spot. I would rather rr than call. Im folding most of the times though.
Calling with 45s is marginal as well. But position is very important when playing SCs.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

OP is asking about NL ("100 BB stacks") and you are responding from a limit POV.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Yes I forgot to mention, this is NL......

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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OP is asking about NL ("100 BB stacks") and you are responding from a limit POV.

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That makes a huge difference. I don't have enough practical NL experience to answer.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

The limit matters a lot, as does a ton of other factors, the biggest is how well do I know my opponents and how they act? How often are they raising in those positions, how often they steal the blinds, how they act in a reraised pot post flop etc etc. Which is why it isn't I think, as simple of an answer as one might think, and falls in the nebulous "it depends" category.

But I also think that in addition to the questions I ask regarding my opponents behaviors and tendancies, I need to ask some questions of my own, and more importantly, have some answers, and be able to work them out within the timer.

For example; what is my plan after 3 betting 99 from the bb as in your example, when the flop misses me (like it so often will) and brings overcards and I am OOP.
Or if I hit my Ace flop with AQ and get crai....now what? can I get away here?
I seem to do better when I have a clear idea of what my plans are though out the hand, esp. in 3 bet pots.

Lots and lots of hands will help as well as posting specific hands here in the NL forums, but there is also a third option, one I may use more than the other two if I need to ask this question, which of course is I can always fold if I am unsure how to proceed.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Going by the cards only, these cards aren't really good enough to re-raise with. That is unless you believe the person that opened the pot is loose raising (raising with a hand that does not represent the range of hands from his position). Therefore, if you're opponent is loose and/or you suspect he is bluffing, then the Gap principal does not apply. In this case, you re-raise the original raiser with a hand you would normally raise with to open the pot with.

Also, A good general rule is if you want to win that pot, to not play with two consecutive passive actions like a call preflop, then a check on the flop (unless you're check-raising). So obviously with that in mind, you have alot of options. I'll just give a few suggestions based on some options I may take against a tight table with guys that bluff every once in a while.

1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button, what's our move...
Answer: Call, then optionally lead out a bet when the flop comes regardless of whether it helped or not. you would like to see a flop with these cards looking for a flush or a straight. I like keeping other players with me on cards like this. But your position on the flop is favorable if you want to take the first stab at it.

2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO.....
Another marginal hand. I would just call and use my position to see where I stand after the flop.

3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button.....
Just call. You can try and re-raise if you're being tricky and you think he's on a steal. But A call and a lead out of half the pot may accomplish the same thing. If he calls you're re-raise pre-flop, then you're done with the hand unless you hit the monster.


4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....
Just call. It's another trouble hand looking for a straight or two pair. I like to keep the pots small on hands like this. The good news is that you have position on him, but the bad news is that you just called his preflop, so he'll most likely lead out a bet that you'll have to either call or re-raise to try and take it away. I expect a continuation bet here on the flop from most players. Re-raise the continuation bet and if he comes over the top, then you're done with the hand. If he calls, then most likely you'll get a free card and see the river card for the price of you're re-raise.

5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....
call and hope to hit the set. Great implied odds that will be denied if you re-raise and he comes over the top. You'll be forced to fold. If you hit your set, you'll be last to act with possibly some money in the pot. If you think the original raiser is bluffing, then it's a case where I would re-raise but that's the only time. Use your reads.

6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG.....
call. Only re-raise with AQs if you think the guy utg is loose and doesn't play position. The range for raising utg is quite narrow unless playing against a short stack or someone that has a weakness for face cards, weak aces, or small pairs. You're looking for a flush here and it's pretty certain there will be some money in the pot if you get a nice piece of it. Just call and use your position to evaluate. Just remember that hitting your ace or queen is n't a guarantee that you're ahead. A raise utg usually represents something like TT-AA, AK, AQ.

7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button....
I think this is a re-raise hand based on the range of hands that can come at you from the button. But if he comes over the top, be prepared to let it go. I can justify a simple call here as well.

8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO....
fold because you don't have the implied odds to play this hand. I like playing 45s with 3 limpers and i'm in position. But a raise and you have to let it go unless you're in an optimal situation where you're getting nice pot odds. For instance, there's a raise after you call...the blinds call and the 3 limpers in front of you call...you're last to act and you call.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Do not reraise with any of these.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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Do not reraise with any of these.

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Reraising with these hands would be considered a steal/resteal or some form of advertising. They are certainly not value re-raises.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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Do not reraise with any of these.

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Reraising with these hands would be considered a steal/resteal or some form of advertising. They are certainly not value re-raises.

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88, 99 and KQs are almost certainly ahead of the villians ranges, remember that the PFR% is across all positions, from the CO or OTB it's much higher.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Wow you guess are passive nits

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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Do not reraise with any of these.

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Reraising with these hands would be considered a steal/resteal or some form of advertising. They are certainly not value re-raises.

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Agreed with some exceptions...for instance in a tournament or sng when the table starts to shrink..

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

Get the money in when your ahead, increase your FE, profit.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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Do not reraise with any of these.

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Reraising with these hands would be considered a steal/resteal or some form of advertising. They are certainly not value re-raises.

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Yes, that's kind of what I meant. There's thin value in a couple of them, but most of them you're OOP with probably a slightly better hand than the raiser.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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Do not reraise with any of these.

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Reraising with these hands would be considered a steal/resteal or some form of advertising. They are certainly not value re-raises.

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88, 99 and KQs are almost certainly ahead of the villians ranges, remember that the PFR% is across all positions, from the CO or OTB it's much higher.

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Yes, because all I care about is being ahead of villain's range. I love having a ton of money in with a medium pair OOP.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.

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Get the money in when your ahead, increase your FE, profit.

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Get your money in OOP, get called, feel obliged to bet out because you have the betting lead, bye bye profit.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

Here's what I'd do... some things might be bad, if so I'd love comments.

1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button, what's our move...

3bet

2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO.....

fold

3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button.....

fold

4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

fold, sometimes raise

5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

mostly raise, sometimes call and fit or fold

6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG.....

mostly 3bet, sometimes flatcall (depending on dynamics)

7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button....

sometimes 3bet, sometimes call for set value

8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO....

mostly fold, sometimes flat call, sometimes 3bet

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.


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My bad, but 99 is still way ahead of 24/17 range aswell. Seeing a flop oop without initiative and no idea of your opponents hand just means you will have to fold a lot of flops. There is nothing you can do when the overcards hit and he scoops the pot with 56s.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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Agreed, but if you want to play poker here, you need more information about their hand and the ability to control the pot, tough to do oop.

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Get the money in when your ahead, increase your FE, profit.

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Get your money in OOP, get called, feel obliged to bet out because you have the betting lead, bye bye profit.

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By betting out on the flop you have created a situation with a greater EV than if you just called.

Many TAGgy villians overestimate their implied odd in these spots and will call any pair and most SCs, only to fold to your c-bet. (and even if they do hit, you can still get away EV intact)

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for? If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here. Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

LOL at the guy that suggested calling nearly all of them and re-raising none/very few. Dream come true stuff if you are at my table.

For me it's:

1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button

3-bet to hell.
2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO.....

Easy fold unless the BTN calls and BB will defo call, then I'll call for a multi-way flop.

3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button.....

Fold, 3-bet or call - depends on my 'recent past' at that table and thus my image. I'd probably call or fold more often but sometime I'll semi-bluff raise this and c-bet any flop.

4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

Never call, usually fold, sometimes 3-bet. I'm ahead of his range and have position but I'm not overly enthusiastic about my hand and have nothing invested in the pot. Just not a hand that needs to be played really. If villain had a really bad habit of calling 3-bets with Jx, Kx all pairs, etc then I'd 3-bet but if he calls a king/jack high flop can't be played very fast.

5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

3-bet or call - mainly to mix it up. I sometimes I like to just 'mine' with these hand and sometimes I like to take over with them. It'll depend on other factors at the table and villains post flop traits.

6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG.....

Insta-muck. No way am I even going to risk taking a flop aginst a 18/12 coming out from UTG with AQ even when I have position. That is unless I had some other influencing factor to make it correct to call or raise? Perhaps he's terrible post flop or a TOTAL nit vs 3-bets?

7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button....

Same as 88 hand and same reasons/logic

8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO....

Fold (usually) or 3-bet (sometimes), never call.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

To those who say not to 3-bet any of these hands. That is crazy. What do your observant opponents think (know) you have when you do actually 3-bet? In at least 3 of these (1,5,7) you are way ahead of villain's opening range.
1. rr
2. f
3. f or rr , read dependant
4. f or call sometimes, mostly fold.
5. rr
6. f or call if opp. is straightforward post flop
7. rr, lead all flops
8. f or rr

you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

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Spot on - I love people that only 3-bet AA-QQ + AK but yet call raises willy nilly with all manner of broadway hands.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.


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My bad, but 99 is still way ahead of 24/17 range aswell.

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You are simply wrong. It is 53/47. Not much overlay for playing OOP.

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Seeing a flop oop without initiative and no idea of your opponents hand just means you will have to fold a lot of flops.

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Seeing a flop with the "initiative" OOP means I have to pay more to fold the same flops.

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There is nothing you can do when the overcards hit and he scoops the pot with 56s.

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65s is not in his range.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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Agreed, but if you want to play poker here, you need more information about their hand and the ability to control the pot, tough to do oop.

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I will be controlling the pot simply by betting out. I'll also receive information pretty quickly. Either way, I'm likely to be betting most flops.

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Get the money in when your ahead, increase your FE, profit.

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Get your money in OOP, get called, feel obliged to bet out because you have the betting lead, bye bye profit.

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By betting out on the flop you have created a situation with a greater EV than if you just called.

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The bet on the flop cannot really have more EV because you threebet, so long as you are leading most flops anyway.

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Many TAGgy villians overestimate their implied odd in these spots and will call any pair and most SCs, only to fold to your c-bet. (and even if they do hit, you can still get away EV intact)

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In most cases, they will be correct to call. Their range vs yours, given the advice you give here, will stand up pretty well. They're not likely to be miles behind. Dude, if I see you even once threejack it with 99 in the big blind against a 17% range, I will call your raise *every time*. I'll be licking my lips when cards in the playing zone flop.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for?

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Rags, basically.

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If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here.

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One overcard, no obvious draws, I bet out. Villain folds. Profit.

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Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

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No, I don't agree. I pay less to take the same risk.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

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Spot on - I love people that only 3-bet AA-QQ + AK but yet call raises willy nilly with all manner of broadway hands.

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I love people who threebet light in the BB. Bloating the pot OOP is one of the worst things you can do in NL in my opinion. YMMV, of course, but I don't see why you want to make a big pot when you are only marginally ahead at best.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

OP specifically mentions that this is 6max. The biggest difference between preflop play in full ring and 6max is that your 3 betting range HAS to be wider in 6max. You make your money over the long run when loose passive players fold their limps/loose raises to your 3 bets. You will play in some bigger pots and have to make some difficult decisions. However, these decisions are made easier by only opening up your 3 bet range when in position. I highly recommend NOT bloating the pot OOP from the blinds unless you have a very solid read or a very good hand. I also recommend folding any hand (to a late position raiser) when you are in the blinds that you would not open raise with from UTG.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for? If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here. Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

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I am beginning to think calling for set value HU is overrated. You are assuming a single foe is going to put alot of chips in if you hit, which might not be the case, and most of the time you miss.

I think with these mid pairs 77-1010 you need to get aggresive against the right opponent. i see it as 50/50, and the reraise helps your metagame.

Re: When to 3-bet and when to just call???
 

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.


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My bad, but 99 is still way ahead of 24/17 range aswell.

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You are simply wrong. It is 53/47. Not much overlay for playing OOP.

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He is not raising 17% of his hands from this position, it more in the range of 20%-30% depending on how position sensitive he is.


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Seeing a flop oop without initiative and no idea of your opponents hand just means you will have to fold a lot of flops.

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Seeing a flop with the "initiative" OOP means I have to pay more to fold the same flops.

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There is nothing you can do when the overcards hit and he scoops the pot with 56s.

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65s is not in his range.

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I dont know what site/limits you play at but at 6-max MSNL on most sites 56s is very much in their range. I run at around 24/16 and I raise 56s if its been folded round to me in OTB or in the CO pretty much every time. Most solid TAGs i play against do too.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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Agreed, but if you want to play poker here, you need more information about their hand and the ability to control the pot, tough to do oop.

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I will be controlling the pot simply by betting out. I'll also receive information pretty quickly. Either way, I'm likely to be betting most flops.

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A decent TAG (as a lot of 24/17's are) will bluff raise you enought times for this to be unprofitable. By controlling the pot I meant controlling the size, sorry if I was unclear, checking behind some streets to get to showdown cheaper, this is impossible to do OOP.

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By betting out on the flop you have created a situation with a greater EV than if you just called.

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The bet on the flop cannot really have more EV because you threebet, so long as you are leading most flops anyway.

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It will have more EV because the pot is larger and you have a much greater chance of taking it down, you will also get bluff raised far less.

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Many TAGgy villians overestimate their implied odd in these spots and will call any pair and most SCs, only to fold to your c-bet. (and even if they do hit, you can still get away EV intact)

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In most cases, they will be correct to call. Their range vs yours, given the advice you give here, will stand up pretty well. They're not likely to be miles behind. Dude, if I see you even once threejack it with 99 in the big blind against a 17% range, I will call your raise *every time*. I'll be licking my lips when cards in the playing zone flop.

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You are welcome to do so, just remember that 99 is near the bottom of my 3 betting range (apart from complete resteals). You will find it very hard to profitably play against this range, esecially if you are calling with =/>17% of your hands.