25/50 squeezed pot
 

Villain makes a lot of dumb, nonsensical bets. He triple barreled FWF with 2nd pair gk, bet 3k into 1k pot, etc. Nonetheless, he hasn't shown down many times and when he has, it is with a hand.

Full Tilt Poker, $25/$50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $1,047
CO: $5,000
BTN: $4,721
SB: $12,258
Hero (BB): $5,247

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $175</font>, BTN calls $175, SB calls $150, <font color="red">Hero raises to $825</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $650

Flop: ($2,000) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($2,000) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $2,000</font>

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I'd fold now if you didn't bet the flop.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I think a lot of his range is Mid pairs and given your read he could def pot those on the turn. So I either fold or shove if you think he will fold those but your line looks FOS and this doesn't seem like a villain who likes folding so I prob just fold.
I think if I were to continue I'd bet flop and shove a lot of turns.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

If i were u i would fold his range is huge, I say same as Jinx fold as never bet the flop proably has KQ or KJ maybe?

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

what a strong flop to bet 1300 on

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

bet the flop

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

do you shove most turns?

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

squeez then check??? seems to weak and he gives no credit with any PP's and K. Fold and play better shipoment

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
what a strong flop to bet 600 on

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

i think it is too expensive to do anything on the turn now

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

actually I don't like this hand for a squeeze, so I would much rather do it with garbage than AJo but as played i think this is a bet/fold flop and mostly shove turn situation..
Don't like the check on the flop against the described Villain...

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I definitely disagree with this being a bad squeezehand.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Well we have a good equity here it's a weird table (we don't know what CO's tendencies are neither do we know how SB will react; if CO calls SB might call and we have it 3way..)
We turn our hand pretty much into a bluff, we cannot call 4bets/shoves and if we get called he has JJ+/AK most of the time. If an Ace hits the board we will rarely get action from worse hands and domination is an issue, if we hit an Jack we will rarely be good if money goes into the pot and afterall taking a flop is cheap and we cannot get raised out of the hand.
Whats the merit of raising AJ there?
I mean it's not bad bad but there are worse hands which I would rather raise cuz we don't care for a bet/fold and domination is not a issue.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well we have a good equity here it's a weird table (we don't know what CO's tendencies are neither do we know how SB will react; if CO calls SB might call and we have it 3way..)
We turn our hand pretty much into a bluff, we cannot call 4bets/shoves and if we get called he has JJ+/AK most of the time. If an Ace hits the board we will rarely get action from worse hands and domination is an issue, if we hit an Jack we will rarely be good if money goes into the pot and afterall taking a flop is cheap and we cannot get raised out of the hand.
Whats the merit of raising AJ there?
I mean it's not bad bad but there are worse hands which I would rather raise cuz we don't care for a bet/fold and domination is not a issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was pretty aggro but vs his shove it'd be an easy fold and if either of the guys in between shoved it's an easy decision because one was a bad nit and the other a bad lag

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Sure it's an easy fold thats not the point, but you have a hand that wants to see a flop cuz it can perform good.
If you have 72o in that spot you just want to take it down pf and wouldn't even call with it. Obviously 72o is just garbage but you lose less if he 4bet/shoves there. AJo is basically a bluff in this spot, and there are hands which will be less dominated and have far less value, so you don't mind folding them.
Obviously I might have sounded bad by saying the squeeze is bad, I think it's +EV, but there are many hands I rather have here and I would call AJo most of the time.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Fisheye, I completely disagree with your last post. AJo isn't too bad if say the button raises and then it folds to you in the BB, but once there are 3 others in for a raise and you are going to be out of position against the probable two best hands of the three, a call 100bb deep is very tricky without good reads on especially the initial raiser. I would much rather squeeze with this hand than call with it. I'd prob fold it more than call with no reads and 3 others in before us without position.

Drafts,

As a lot of good players have said, I would def bet the flop here. If you dont think he will bluff raise you or call light for a float, than i would be tempted to bet a smaller amount than a usual continuation bet because on this board without a King/set/draw, he will be very hard pressed to stand a flop bet + turn shove and a smaller bet on the flop will allow for a bigger shove on the turn.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I really don't believe that much in squeezes with hands that are not real squeeze hands.
Was the raise for value because we believe to have the best hand or a squeeze, trying to get better hands out?
If this is a loose game where ppl will call squeeze light, I don't like it that much here cuz domination is still a case and foldequity goes down.
It also doesn't seem like we will know what their calling ranges consist of.
We open ourself for CO to bluff 4bet us out or just jam a hand like JJ or AK plus one of the callers might have expect a squeeze and come over the top light / or play AA tricky.
As I said I don't think the squeeze itself is bad but getting 4,6:1 for a call (we only need below 18% equity) and we won't evict AK too often and maybe not even AQ.
So if we hit an Ace we have a good chance to think that this helped us and obviously we don't smash around big and kinda know to play timid there.
Irockhoess I hope I won't live the day where I fold AJo for 4,6:1 in the BB. I doubt this is ever correct.

I really don't want to annoy this thread with my squeeze conversation but it seems like the right answers have already been given and therefore everything else is cleared out.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely disagree with this being a bad squeezehand.

[/ QUOTE ] 2nd this

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Okay since everyone agreed to disagree with me, why not try to talk about it instead of writing this short quotes down again and again.
I don't mind learning something new but it should be reasonable [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

ok, i loved every posts of yours, but i have to disagrre about Aj beeing a bad Squeeze hand.

1. How often will you be 4bet bluffed? I like folding after being 4bet here.

2. Do you like playing am Ad5s8s flop OOp vs 2 Villains
Or Jh9d3s, forgetting about all the flops you miss.

3. Balance your range

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

The whole point is that after 4bets and shoves we would fold out a hand that has compareable good equity postflop.
By raising our hand we kinda transform it into a bluff while a hand like 96o would play terribly postflop and we don't mind a 4bet/shove that much.
If this table plays very loose and ppl will call your squeezes on a regular basis with worse hands (SC) then it's not a real squeeze but a value raise, there is definately a difference.
As played and posted by OP this is a squeeze play and not a value raise therefore I would much rather have a weakish hand with no domination and ugly postflop spots.
Also I doubt the "fold or squeeze" argument applies here. AJ is a clear call preflop if you don't elect to squeeze with it.
Folding this hand preflop seems out of question for me, keep in mind that with 18% equity required Ad5s8s flops aren't even what we can aim for.
We are looking for trips/2pair/straights and might ocassionaly see turn and river with just a pair if the board/conditions are right.
By saying AJo is a good squeeze here you basically say you think ATo, A9o and all of these hands are good, too because we cannot expect opponents to call a worse ace preflop and lower pocketpairs aren't a big concern in this case.
So would you play the same way with A9o ? No? Why not, with the current arguments this is a spot where AT or AJ might fold against you, therefore your squeeze play has more merit and plays worse postflop.
If you squeeze AJ because you believe it could be the best hand then it's not a real squeeze play and the situation has a wrong description.
If this is a raise for value pf that would change a lot and there is not much to argue about cuz I don't know the tableconditions well enough.
I stay with my argument, I don't like AJ as a bluff here (much rather have AT or A9 which are true bluffs and could fold out better aces plus we don't lose as much value postflop if 4bet/shoved on and our hand performs worse mutliway anyways so we don't like to call pf as much).

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Fish,

I think the point I am trying to make is that calling here for value preflop is def a good option if there was just one other player in, but with 3 others already in, what flop are you really going to be extracting value from?

A guy who raises lets say A10 in the CO and gets called by 3 players, do you think when the flop comes down A96 he is going to be betting more than 1 MAYBE 2 bets into the pot? AJo is too low of a hand to have that many hands below us put enough value in without the flop being like JJx or KQ10.

I think AJo makes a good hand to raise here, sometimes fold, and very rarely call behind 3 people oop.

I think my argument is coming from me seeing 3 players in before us, us being oop, and very few flops are we going to be able to extract a lot of value from.

I def wouldnt squeeze AJ every time, but I disagree that calling is a great option here. You said in a previous post that it plays too well post flop, which against a CO or Button raiser is true, but against 3 hands seeing the flop, its value is much more as a bluff against standard players at this level.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

irock,

is this a new sn? cause i'm pretty sure the real irock is iRock on 2+2...

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

ya, i lost my old password and don't remember the email attached to it. after seeing that KQ vs KQ hand for 5k i don't think anyone would try to impersonate me haha.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

irock,

Your post was well written in showing why a flat call is vastly inferior to fold/raising. Nice post.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I agree that his logic was well put into words but I disagree with his conclusions.
Just put the players handranges into pokerstove and see if you average more than 18%, I am pretty sure you will be way above that.
Obviously we don't have a very good playability but it's not like we need to outplay a whole field of players with AJ for our tournament life.
You flop something or find a great spot to take their monies, do it.
Otherwise just move on and fold the hand.
If we flop a Jack or Ace there is a good chance we will have the best hand but we won't put much money in anyways.
If we hit 2pair we might win a biggish pot against AQ/AK..
We might be able to extract monies with trips or get some monies when hitting straight/nutflushdraw.
I agree that I would much rather have 76s than AJo to call in that spot but I would never think about folding this hand.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

I think you value AJ as a hand more than I do. To me AJ and A10 are mentioned in the same breathe, whereas AQ is trying to squeak in to become AK's sidekick. I always find myself in really difficult situations with AJ oop. If you can play it for a better EV here by calling, i'd definitely call, but i just don't think i can play it more profitably than squeezing. At lower stakes, like the 5/10 i have been grinding the last few months, AJ gains much more value, but these 25/50 games are harder than even a year ago when i was playing them daily, and putting yourself in this position with a flat call is just going to want to make you hate life.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
ya, i lost my old password and don't remember the email attached to it. after seeing that KQ vs KQ hand for 5k i don't think anyone would try to impersonate me haha.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL i rmemeber that

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

LOL?

thats just jealousy.
name the last time u 6 bet on a flop with K high chopping.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

post hand? seems fun

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually I don't like this hand for a squeeze, so I would much rather do it with garbage than AJo but as played i think this is a bet/fold flop and mostly shove turn situation..
Don't like the check on the flop against the described Villain...

[/ QUOTE ]

U act like AJ plays well in a 5 way pot, this is a good spot to squeeze and have no clue why you didnt bet the flop.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually I don't like this hand for a squeeze, so I would much rather do it with garbage than AJo but as played i think this is a bet/fold flop and mostly shove turn situation..
Don't like the check on the flop against the described Villain...

[/ QUOTE ]

U act like AJ plays well in a 5 way pot, this is a good spot to squeeze and have no clue why you didnt bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

just short circuited it was dumb

resulst: i shoved turn it was not pretty

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

U act like AJ plays well in a 5 way pot, this is a good spot to squeeze and have no clue why you didnt bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

How can people read FiSheYe's post without wanting to tear out their eyes?

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

preflop is played well, just as everyone stated its mandatory to bet flop here, id say 1377

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

Uh seems like the dynamics on your 25/50 tables are a lot more loose/agressive than on mine...
Anyways gonna take this into consideration the next time I will end up in the same spot, I usually call there with AJo unless I feel a squeeze will succeed very often.
But I will squeeze with a wide range of other hands that have barely any postflop value.
Never perceived AJ as a hand I like to squeeze with...
Anyways thanks for the constructive discussion, Pudge714 if you don't contribute, stay out plz.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

irock post the QK hand

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

FullTiltPoker Game #2911396189: Table Larson (6 max) - $10/$20 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:24:05 ET - 2007/07/10
Seat 1: HAAANH ($6,695.30)
Seat 2: Efemeral7 ($400)
Seat 3: Ansky451 ($2,292)
Seat 4: iRockhoes ($2,764)
Seat 5: MotherFlusher ($1,970)
Seat 6: kerpowski ($1,970)
HAAANH posts the small blind of $10
Efemeral7 has 5 seconds left to act
Efemeral7 is sitting out
Efemeral7 has timed out
Ansky451 posts the big blind of $20
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iRockhoes [Kh Qs]
Efemeral7 has returned
iRockhoes raises to $60
MotherFlusher folds
kerpowski folds
HAAANH folds
Ansky451 has 15 seconds left to act
Ansky451 calls $40
*** FLOP *** [Js 7d 6c]
Ansky451 checks
iRockhoes bets $130
Ansky451 has 15 seconds left to act
Ansky451 raises to $400
iRockhoes has 15 seconds left to act
iRockhoes raises to $1,180
Ansky451 has 15 seconds left to act
Ansky451 raises to $2,232, and is all in
iRockhoes has 15 seconds left to act
iRockhoes calls $1,052
Ansky451 shows [Qh Kd]
iRockhoes shows [Kh Qs]
*** TURN *** [Js 7d 6c] [7s]
Ansky451: LOL
*** RIVER *** [Js 7d 6c 7s] [8h]
Ansky451 shows a pair of Sevens
iRockhoes shows a pair of Sevens
Ansky451 ties for the pot ($2,295.50) with a pair of Sevens
iRockhoes ties for the pot ($2,295.50) with a pair of Sevens
iRockhoes: oops
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4,594 | Rake $3
Board: [Js 7d 6c 7s 8h]
Seat 1: HAAANH (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: Efemeral7 is sitting out
Seat 3: Ansky451 (big blind) showed [Qh Kd] and won ($2,295.50) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 4: iRockhoes showed [Kh Qs] and won ($2,295.50) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 5: MotherFlusher didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: kerpowski (button) didn't bet (folded)

"fold? [censored] you i raise" was the theme of this hand.

Re: 25/50 squeezed pot
 

What a fish.