The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

$8,500 guaranteed $69+$6 6-handed double stack MTT on Full Tilt. Final table has been in progress for about 15 minutes with no casualties. Everyone seems to be able to play, and there have been quite a few steals and resteals, but as yet, no all in showdowns. This was the first time I'd seen anyone open limp at the final table:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t2500/t5000
(Ante: t600)
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t91398
UTG+1: t39154
Hero: t113323
Button: t83148
SB: t74029
BB: t84948

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t5000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t11100)</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t20000</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in t90798</font>, Hero ???

Is his range here really just AA/KK? I've seen this move made by middle pairs and AK quite often, but is he really doing this against the only guy that can bust him?

For what it's worth, this is the payout structure:


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2875/untitledbj8.jpg

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

This is AA.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

you will see AKsuited, AQ suited, AA, KK, occasionally JJ and TT. Occasionally a resteal, but i'd only give it Harrington's 10%.

My thought is that my M=10, effecive m less than that if I fold. Very tough.

If basically every hand had been raised PF, no showdowns, and it was turning into a PF game, I have to go with it. Especially 6 handed, you have to play this.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention was the chat. I don't know if this affects anything...

Swisterski raises to 90,798, and is all in
thesilkworm: aaaaaaaaagh
SecretOfMana: lolz
thesilkworm: that stinks of AA
thesilkworm has 15 seconds left to act
Swisterski: nope
thesilkworm: KK?

At this point my time was running out and I made my decision.

Edit: Oh btw, the person who said "lolz" was just one of the other players at the table. Villain was the player who said "nope".

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Im not a guy that folds QQ preflop. Basically never.

I fold them here.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

i call, You will see lots of hands besides AA and KK. Though his chat does scare, but he might be thinking on a higher level. lol.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

I'd fold. I'm a tight nit, though. Wait...

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

turn the chat off.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Call and it's not really close.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Look, this a tough one no question. If you fold you are at about 93K, more than enough to move into top 3 in pay out. What is more important to you the $ or the win? However, this smells of AA/KK. If I were UTG here I'd limp w/ AA or KK if I hadn't done it yet. I would fold here, I've been in your shoes a few times in similar situations and my opponent turned over AA/KK/AK. Fold, look at your stack you got enough to move up.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

If I were the villain I would have 88-JJ here every time.

With 18bbs and a very active table this is the perfect spot to go for a limp-shove with a mid pair. The fact that people are willing to consider folding QQ to your limp-shove makes it that much better of a play.

Because of this, I instacall with QQ in your spot however I am not surprised the times that he turns over AA.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Right, at an active table w/ 88-jj shouldn't I expect a call from QQ or JJ-99 even? So why would I shove w/ 88-jj at an active table? You make a good point but if I'm villain and the table is active I shouldn't expect QQ to lay down.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call and it's not really close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is more important to you the $ or the win?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume that I'm adequately bankrolled and am looking to take the +$EV choice.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I were the villain I would have 88-JJ here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, but I'm giving you credit for being a better, more experienced player than this guy. Don't get me wrong, I think he played well, but I looked up his pokerdb as the final table started and it is evident that this player is not an experienced tournament player, at least not at Full Tilt.

I think this is a great play if he has a middle pair type hand by the way.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

If UTG is Savvy he must believe that you would call at this point with only AA-JJ, and maybe AKs or 10,10. If he is on like JJ-88 as Cornell suggests he must be thinking you are stealing in late position? Does he have any reason to believe you are stealing? Is he savvy? I don't know. If the answer to Q 1 is yes then call. If the answer to Q 2 is yes then fold.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I were the villain I would have 88-JJ here every time.

With 18bbs and a very active table this is the perfect spot to go for a limp-shove with a mid pair.

[/ QUOTE ]


the very active table as described by the poster is also the ideal scenario for limping a monster pf from utg.

that being said there are many more non AA,KK hands he could do this with, so i cannot fold.

it is the perfect spot for a limp w/AA,KK, though......

by the way... is that joint "the nines" still open in ithaca ???

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I were the villain I would have 88-JJ here every time.

With 18bbs and a very active table this is the perfect spot to go for a limp-shove with a mid pair. The fact that people are willing to consider folding QQ to your limp-shove makes it that much better of a play.

Because of this, I instacall with QQ in your spot however I am not surprised the times that he turns over AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 18xBB, this is a reasonable way to play any hand 99+, AQ+. Also, villain could have played a smaller pp for a set and went to plan B. Not everyone knows to do this or likes to play this way. Villain has AA/KK maybe 40% of the time. However, you have pot odds to call.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

At a final table I have seen this done with TT+, AK.
However it is short handed which could mean his range could be this wide.
Although given that he has a big stack and he is going up against the only player who can knock him out I think it would be really foolish to do this with less than QQ+, AK.
However it really depends on how much you have been raising and how tight he is. If he expects you to open with a wide range then he may well do this with TT expecting you to fold a large majority of the time, also if a lot of raises are going to the flop then the same will apply.

To be honest though in general his range is well ahead of you so its a pot odds v. prize structure question. If you lose you are crippled and $500 is looking good if you fold you still have the ability to steal liberally and with 3 steals you will have more than made up for this.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

If you want to win the tournament you should call no doubt.
1.7+ to 1 pot odds.
Even against KK+,AK you are good. With AK part of his range, I think it definately has to be you only need 1.5 to 1.

If you want to come 2nd,3rd and possibly win then fold.
Pretty sure its that simple.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Dont fold QQ short handed and with these short stacks. Besides you can always suck out when your behind, which isnt that often.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

Thank you to everyone who commented.

Just to clarify once more, I'm neither "playing for the win" nor "playing to move up the money ladder"; I'm just looking for the +$EV decision here.

I can see that the vote is somewhat divided. Some people are saying they would call and some people are saying fold.

Well i called, and having read all of the responses I'm happy that this was the correct decision. Faced with this situation again, I'd call.

Unfortunately, he had Kings, and I lost this pot and bust out in 6th place a few hands later. At the time I wonderered if I could have found a fold, but having read the responses here, I'm happy that I made the correct decision.

Better luck next time I guess... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks all.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

I fold here most of the time.

When the second big stack makes a move like this against the only guy who can knock him out, I narrow his range down really tight. You are obviously hoping for JJ or 1010. Even if I knew he had AK, I might still lay this down.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

How would you really ever consider folding here to AK getting these pot odds?

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

[ QUOTE ]
How would you really ever consider folding here to AK getting these pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
At such a final table, with a solid M and a solid Q and being what I would consider a solid player, I am going to play much like the beginning of the tourney and avoid a situation that could be crippling.

I wouldn't fault anyone for calling with proper odds but I play in a manner that I am looking for domination and not coinflips. I also look to steal, make moves against players I can read and generally play a low risk style. I am usually the one making the aggression and not the one calling.

That's just my style and I will give up situations where I have a slight edge but could be eliminated or crippled. If players recognize this, I do adapt but that's the subject of another post.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

I wonder who said "lolz" and ended up getting 3rd by missing an allin with nut flush draw + overs + backdoor draw against the guy with mid pair.

Not my first post, but I didnt like my otherscreen name, so i guess this is better.

Re: The limp-raise all in? What\'s his range here? Final table...
 

i think about it and call, then i laugh at how i almost got away from such a cooler