24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t5000/t10000
(Ante: t1000)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t367171
UTG+1: t138204
MP1: t300877
MP2: t97326
CO: t276938
Button: t88306
SB: t222006
Hero: t347573

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to t30000</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t90000</font>, CO calls t60000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t123000)</font>.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t193000, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero ???</font>

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

Shoving pre isn't a big mistake if any. Shove flop, he has a pot sized stack.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

2/3 pot, fold to aggression?

I sometimes check here, but usually only if I know villain
will only tend to bet made hands...not just letting
him take us off the overs he may suspect we have?

We did 3-bet, however, so I hate checking, especially
OOP...so let's find out if he likes his hand with a
larger-than avg probe bet?

-ZEN

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/3 pot, fold to aggression?

I sometimes check here, but usually only if I know villain
will only tend to bet made hands...not just letting
him take us off the overs he may suspect we have?

We did 3-bet, however, so I hate checking, especially
OOP...so let's find out if he likes his hand with a
larger-than avg probe bet?

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet 120k and fold for another 60k?

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2/3 pot, fold to aggression?

I sometimes check here, but usually only if I know villain
will only tend to bet made hands...not just letting
him take us off the overs he may suspect we have?

We did 3-bet, however, so I hate checking, especially
OOP...so let's find out if he likes his hand with a
larger-than avg probe bet?

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet 120k and fold for another 60k?

[/ QUOTE ]No. He obv misread op.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

O Jesus...I promise not to post until after 5 coffees,
perhaps not at all [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

sry

-ZEN

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

I usually just shove pre, but this is a pretty sexy way to play it actually. Most of the time you have 25% equity if you're called (you would only need 33% equity to call if he shoved given his stack size), you take it down on the flop some of the time without making a hand and if you a flop a pair with A-K you get value out of worse hands sometimes. Of course shoving pre gets it in as a huge favorite against A-Q some of the time, especially if he thinks you're not giving a CO raise much credit, but I definitely like the former (go-and-go?) if he's a tighter player.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

I like shoving this pre because it widens our range. We could be doing it with a wide range of hands like 66+, AT+ or something like that therefore we get values our of worse hand. Just raising lets us get outdrawn on flop, but it also kind of simulates more strength since an observant opponent may view it as a strong move because we didn't shove. Having said this I would bet about 1/2 the pot, and I am in a rush so if we are not committed fold to a raise, if commited then obviously call.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

I bet 140k... he shoved I obv called the 40+k.

He showed QTs, 8 on the turn, GG.

As long as I didn't get a bunch of c/f' I don't mind the way I played this hand.

In hind sight given his hand I guess shoving was best. But I think I would have strongly considered. Folding to a 4-bet.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

Bet-folding this flop is very bad, so just bet enough to cover him.
edit: folding to 4 bet is bad too. These donks will 4 bet AQ and TT frequently enough that even if they never 4 bet light you have plenty of equity.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

An important point to make here is that once you 3bet PF you're not folding. You're 3betting PF then calling a shove, or shoving the flop if villain just calls (unless it's, you know, AAK, then you can check or something.) You can't 3bet, not like the flop, then decide to fold somehow. If you're going to do that then just shove PF.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

[ QUOTE ]
An important point to make here is that once you 3bet PF you're not folding. You're 3betting PF then calling a shove, or shoving the flop if villain just calls (unless it's, you know, AAK, then you can check or something.) You can't 3bet, not like the flop, then decide to fold somehow. If you're going to do that then just shove PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is why a shove would of been better. By raising the Villian is calling 60k for 270k. Because I lead like 99% of the flops. And he has the option of what to do.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

I think I would have preferred raising to to 120k pf, then shoving any flop. Obviously your decision to stay with the hand is predetermined by what you do pf. If you 3 bet pf, it's going in on the flop.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

[ QUOTE ]
An important point to make here is that once you 3bet PF you're not folding. You're 3betting PF then calling a shove, or shoving the flop if villain just calls (unless it's, you know, AAK, then you can check or something.) You can't 3bet, not like the flop, then decide to fold somehow. If you're going to do that then just shove PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. also make it more like like 110,000 preflop making a shove easier.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

In reality, 110 or 90k should be enough to get a fold out of QT.

Re: 24+2: AK down to two tables.
 

[ QUOTE ]
And he has the option of what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying the go-and-go is never a good play when you don't have position? The way you played this is as far as I can tell is exactly how Bond18 suggests you play it in his (awesome) strategy posts -- you raised preflop such that your shove on the flop wasn't an overbet given the CO's stack (in this case that happened to be a standard re-raise amount).

To be honest, I don't understand the math behind the play very well. You get more value out of crappy hands that won't call a shove, but as you said the pot-committed shove OOP is unfortunate when he flops a hand. I think it's important to the viability of the play is that you're doing it with A-K, A-Q hands that are either going to pair up or be overs on most flops. If you do this with a middle pair, I think you get in some worse spots b/c you almost always need to flop a set to be ahead if he calls and you're drawing to two outs a lot of the time when you're behind. Doing this with a big pair is fine of course.