KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

This hand came up on Poker Stars nightly 55 k. I was cruising with above average chips (20k av.)with 35k, about 180 left, 153 pays, blinds 500/1000/100. I was UTG and delt KK. I raise to 4000, seat 2 with approx. 30k goes all in, everyone folds back to me. After thinking for about 30 sec., I rule out AA since most everyone wouldve just min raised to clear everyone else out and go HU with me. So now that leaves any other pair and AK, so I call. Seat 2 shows AK and flops gin with an ace and I'm crippled. Now I am struggling that I made the right call for this hand, but was it the right call in the overall scheme of things for tournament poker with my stack and standing in the tourney ? I am strongly leaning towards that I made a Bad Call, since I could've easily folded and still been more than fine. I am trying to improve my game more towards playing flops and less and less and away from "racing" and all-in pre flop. Am I being too hard on myself ? Am I basing this too much on results oriented thinking here ? Or was I a donk and should've insta folded Kings preflop ?

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

you should have easily folded

why put your chips at risk when you're such a marginal favorite?

only get your chips in 95% fav or just blind out

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Results oriented. If you are sure he doesn't have AA call obv.

Payouts worth getting are at the FT not cashing.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

I wasn't 100% sure he didn't have aces, but the way he quickly reraised and raised all in when he himself with 30 k in chips was healthy, led me to believe he didn't have aces and wanted me to fold preflop.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Ha ha ha, very funny.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

This isn't a race. Never fold KK preflop, as a general rule.

As another poster pointed out, you want the real money at the top, cashing is meaningless in comparison. Just go to a tourney lobby, and divide the top payout by the first payout. Realize how many times you have to cash to equal one top 3 finish.

Folding KK PF is not a winning strategy.

There are some good threads in the stickies regarding passing up edges. And check out Bond18's series 'Things It Took Me A While To Learn.' There's one in there about misconceptions, and it deals with ideas of a "tournament life," "better spots," etc.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

yeah yeah yeah..... KK in this spot should be considered a medium pair and the AK push is how they teach you to play it in sklansky's TPFAP book..... i thought AK before i got that far in the reading of your post. i'd fold and show my KK and be happy that i have over 13M left and can still make some moves....

i've been wondering how to deal w/ this situation myself in the "land of make believe" and not stacking myself w/ something overplayed that I could have got away from. (read my series on pushing AK vs pushing or small raising it)

u're only a 2/1 favorite against ace anything ... do the math...500+1000+10(100 antes) = 2500... your 4000 and his 4000 = 10500...+ 26000 more = 36k... you have to call 28k into this... it's barely over 1.2:1..... EASYYYY FOLD... and show him your hand so he knows u aren't messing around UTG. I've pushed w/ this at times in spots like this and even A2 A3 A4 etc all still stand the same chance of crippling me. uses your stack to abuse the blinds and get cheap $ that way, it sounds like you can cripple them

moral of the story, i'm uber-paranoid and feel like online poker is like a slot machine... hand patterns are picked not random cards, yet I $$$$ 30% (ft2%) of the time so obviously i don't lick donkey nards... but i don't get to FT's much in 400some person $2-$5 buyin donkaments, cuz i'm not restealing w/ KQ and stuff like that from the blinds to accumulate.
online AK can always beat pairs, but it rarely ever beats Ace-rag. i'm convinced of this. bond may ban me forever, but i'll still stick to my guns.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

One of my favorite lines is, "I didn't come here to fold kings." I think if you're willing to fold kings preflop semi-frequently or even occasionally, you're not going to go super deep in many tournaments.

If you are playing to win, you must call here. To win tournaments, you have to get a little lucky, but you also have to be willing to take some calculated risks. In the big picture, this really isn't that much of a risk at all. Only one hand beats you. As you said, it's probably less likely that he has AA because he made such a huge overbet.

After all, your read was correct. You had him essentially dead to three outs preflop. You can't ask for much better situations than that. Don't beat yourself up just because online poker is rigged. Tough break. You should have been right up there with the chip leaders. Get 'em next time!

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Trappped,

Don't ever ever ever EVER (in a non satellite tournament) fold KK pre. You really need to loosen up pre if you're thinking of folding here.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

[quote
Don't ever ever ever EVER (in a non satellite tournament) fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the fact that I would have added a few more ever's.......yea,that's pretty much it.....

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't 100% sure he didn't have aces...

[/ QUOTE ]

Arggggggggggggggg, so why are you questioning the call then.

Never fold KK pf in a donkament.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I basing this too much on results oriented thinking here ? Or was I a donk and should've insta folded Kings preflop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I recently won a small $3 buy-in MTT and had a ~$350 payday. The bubble paid something like ~$3.50. This discrepancy is enormous!

You need to do whatever it takes to make the final table and win. There will be many instances where you will be 'only' a 70% favorite to win preflop, but you HAVE to gamble to make big money.

Think of it this way... ~70% of the time you would have a huge chip stack which you could use to go deep into the tournament. ~30% of the time you will be crippled, but still have a chance to make a comeback (5BB).

Having a big stack is huge near the bubble, which is fast approaching. Many players will want to cash and you can steal a lot of blinds when it gets down to ~160 players. Other players may be afraid to play against you out of fear of busting.

If you had like 200BB+ and the villain had 200BB+, you can consider folding. But not for 35BB.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

you cant let the outcome dictate if you made the right play or not. The guy got lucky against your KK. you were a fav to win the hand preflop so why fold when you are the fav? plus, being close to the money, alot of players tend to get aggressive and try to steal pots. This could have easily been a shove with 88-QQ or AK-AQ. so why lay down KK when you could be a 80-20 fav but generally speaking I would think in that spot that you are a 65-35 favorite. so laying KK down just to "wait" for a better spot or to slide into the money is the wrong play because that is the "better spot" right there. You might not get a better spot until your stack dindles and your forced to move in hoping to double up and stay alive. Dont let an unlucky hand dictate to you that you might have played the hand incorrectly. I find it incorrect to let luck be a factor in logical poker reasoning because it will affect your game way too much.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Just a bad beat. You have to call with KK and roll the dice. If you double up you are in position to make a run to the final table and if you lose you are a crippled.

On the button in particular, he could be making a move with a dominated hand like 77 or 88. It is likely that he has AK since people want to get it all in to see all the cards with AK.

Later in tournaments as you get closer to the final table, I have folded JJ or QQ to a tight players reraise because I did not want to race my way out (or worse). But I don't think there are many, if any, good times to fold KK in a tournament.

Weirdrash
http://www.bettingforvalue.com

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

call every time

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Initially, the 4xBB raise UTG on the bubble with KK was very questionable. Obviously, you get action from AK and JJ+, but probably nothing else.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

[ QUOTE ]
Initially, the 4xBB raise UTG on the bubble with KK was very questionable. Obviously, you get action from AK and JJ+, but probably nothing else.

[/ QUOTE ]but you don't want to raise 2.5x and let some yahoo with A3 sooted bluff at you, you might get sucked out on...

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

From cardplayer's coverage of the recent WPT Foxwood event (http://www.cardplayer.com/tournament...9/18096?page=2)

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #22 - Mike White has the button in seat 6, Vela limps from middle position for 40,000, White limps from the button, Deeb raises from the small blind to 250,000, Myung reraises from the big blind to 810,000, and Vela moves all in for 1,895,000. White quickly folds.

With all this action, Freddy Deeb stands up and says, "I need a cigar and a glass of cognac on this hand. In all the years I've been playing tournament poker, I've never been in this situation." Deeb thinks for more than three minutes before he folds his hand, but he keeps his cards next to the muck so he can show them later.

Now it's Myung's turn to make a decision, and he takes longer than Deeb. More than five minutes pass before he calls with 1010. Vela flips over KK, and he's in a dominating position to double up.

Freddy Deeb's hand? He folded KK preflop. He says he was sure that Vela had aces.

The board comes QJ9, and Myung flops an open-ended straight draw -- except the top end of the straight is dead because all four kings have already been played. If Myung catches a ten for a set, it would give Vela the lead with a king-high straight. So Myung needs an eight to win with a straight, or a runner-runner full house if a ten should come.

The turn card is the Q, and now the full house is in play for Myung, and he will bust Vela if he catches a ten or an eight.

The river card is the -- 7. Vela breathes a sigh of relief as his pocket kings hold up to win the pot, and he doubles up in chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

So Deeb's been playing for how long? And this was one of the hardest decisions he's ever made. And, arguably, he made a mistake - being results oriented, he would have chopped the pot with Vela, and won whatever extra from Myung.

My point - you made the right play. If you're 100% convinced the other guy has Aces, muck. But otherwise, shove 'em in...

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

Definitely not a mistake by Deeb imo. He said that he read the guy for AA or KK. If he's confident in his read, it's an easy fold because AA is much more likely due to Freddy holding half the kings...

Point is, you really need a specific read if you're going to fold KK pre.

Re: KK, UTG, above av. chips, Stars 55k, on the Bubble
 

That's quite a hand. I didn't hear about that one. Pretty sick stuff.