10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

villain is an old gambly dude who likes to bluff....he thought for like 2 minutes about cold-calling a raise and a reraise when he flopped a gutshot straight draw before folding and bitching about it.....I also think he thinks I'm a goofball because even though I'm playing pretty tight, I've been raising a lot preflop (basically every hand that I play) and he has not only commented on it, but one time he reraised me like $500 preflop with jacks (I had aces and the bastard not only calls my all-in but gets a chop pot when the board makes a straight).....

anyway, it's folded to villain (~$2k) on the button who makes it $100, SB folds, and I (cover) call with AQ.....

flop is A24 rainbow

I check, he bets $140, I checkraise to $400.....

now, often times I'll just check/call all the way against a guy like this because they're usually drawing slim and so I'll just let'em blow off chips......the reason I checkraised in this case was because A) I thought if he had a smaller ace (AJ, AT, A9, etc.) he'd defintely go to felt and I'd be missing a good opportunity by playing a small pot, B) there was definitely some chance he'd put me on a bluff and look me up with a pocket pair below aces, C) he wasn't all that deep, and D) I wasn't gonna give a freebee OOP to a hand with a low card (33, 55, A3, A5).......

after my checkraise, he pauses for a few seconds and raises $500 more.....I think he would've just called me down with AJ/etc. so his reraise either means that he has AK or better, or, he puts me on a pure bluff and he's trying to re-steal......he has like $1100 left......comments on everything?....

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

against mr 2K i just push and get it over with, pretty easy. i like the flop checkraise.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

coltrane,

Is he really going to fire again if you call? I think you just end up getting screwed more often by letting him see both the turn and river than the times you make money by him stone cold bluffing away the rest of his chips on the turn.

So, I just stick the rest in right there on the flop.

Also, instead of writing I (cover) call it is more badass to write something like I ($34,000) call.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

D, do you disagree with any of my 4 reasons for the flop checkraise?.....

PS - we should all just start including net worth into our hand histories....for example, "Villain calls and is playing $3200 behind, I call in the BB and am playing $4300 behind on the table plus $35,498 in my checking account, one rental property on the Jersey shore, and a 1956 Chevy Impalla with a rebuilt engine but ORIGINAL transmission".....

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

lets see. you are out of position and there is 30 bucks in the pot. then the button makes it 100 and you want to get 2000 in there with ace queen, first by calling then sticking the rest in with top pair.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

Ray,

against the player I described, do you auto-fold this preflop?

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets see. you are out of position and there is 30 bucks in the pot. then the button makes it 100 and you want to get 2000 in there with ace queen, first by calling then sticking the rest in with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

ray...something tells me you haven't played the 10/20NL at the commerce in quite some time.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

Ray: I think that is fine assuming his description of this being a guy who will go felt vs. him with Ace-rag.

coltrane: Assuming your read of this player and situation is correct, I like all four reasons.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets see. you are out of position and there is 30 bucks in the pot. then the button makes it 100 and you want to get 2000 in there with ace queen, first by calling then sticking the rest in with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

^ I'm with Ray. Is it that out of the question that he has like AK, A4s, some people like to overplay 22, 44 any pair etc preflop because of what they see on TV.

I guess if you feel he'll give his money away to someone else first and you need to get to it now, but by the sounds of it you can find a less ambiguous spot to get all his money

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

NLfool,

The beauty of real poker is when you lose you can buy to cover!

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

when i make these kind of comments it isnt to tell you to fold auto or whatever. it is to adjust your thinking about what is really going on in the hand. the results do not matter but what the consequenses are do matter.

i am not there to see specifically the player or what he was doing but to comment in general, and in general doing these things dont bring home the bacon.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

I agree

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree

[/ QUOTE ]
i dont.

WTF brings home the bacon, pocket aces?

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

mostly yes.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
mostly yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

and when you say this you are refering to playing with short stacks right...cuz i know you wouldn't say this seriously about deep stacked no-limit.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets see. you are out of position and there is 30 bucks in the pot. then the button makes it 100 and you want to get 2000 in there with ace queen, first by calling then sticking the rest in with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding in this situation is letting a very good opportunity go by. One which probably wont come up because mr gambler will have gone broke.

...Iwould be happy to play a 4k pot vs said villain and top pair.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

pushing is very standard here. and by here i mean commerce.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]

...Iwould be happy to play a 4k pot vs said villain and top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

is everyone missing where coltrane says:


after my checkraise, he pauses for a few seconds and raises $500 more.....I think he would've just called me down with AJ/etc. so his reraise either means that he has AK or better, or, he puts me on a pure bluff and he's trying to re-steal......he has like $1100 left......

sounds like he doesn't particularly want to get called here.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

Well obviously you first need to decide if you're willing to go to the felt. That's something you know better than us, but if the Commerce 10/20 game plays anything like the comparably sized Bellagio or Borgata games (and I'm told that it's better?), I'd be pretty comfortable playing a $4k pot against the type of player you've described.

Then it just becomes a matter of whether to stick the rest in on the flop, or to just call and perhaps let villain bluff off the rest of his chips on later streets, right?

Well, if you just call his flop three-bet, there will be $1,800 in the pot, leaving villain w/ $1,100 behind, correct? I'd be inclined to believe that despite having position, villain couldn't possibly think he has much folding equity once you call the $500 reraise, and probably wouldn't stick the rest in unless he had you beat.

Also, if you just call the flop and check the turn, villain very well may check behind, giving him two shots to improve his hand. Even if your plan is to call the flop and push the turn, he still has another card to potentially make the best hand.

So I guess the best plan is to just stick it in.

You know, on the other hand, if we're correct in assuming that villain wouldn't expect much fold equity from pushing the turn if you call the flop and then check, he probably wouldn't stick the rest in on the turn unless you're beat, right?

So is it then possible that coltrane could safely call the flop and then check-fold to a turn push, saving $1,100? Dunno.

I think I still push.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

for someone who just posted about high stakes at the borgata, you seem to know awfully little about live poker. (this is sarcasm... i'm going to include this from now on so people don't take offense which they usually do).

but seriously, when you say if you call and check villain will think oh there's 1800 in the pot and i have 1100 so if i bluff hero will never fold getting 2.5 to 1, you're crazy. often he'll think... 1100!! he'll never call 1100 without something really good! that's 1100 dollars! 11 hundreds of dollars! and push. i think assuming peolpe assume no fold equity is a vast misassumption, just from my experience.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
D, do you disagree with any of my 4 reasons for the flop checkraise?.....

PS - we should all just start including net worth into our hand histories....for example, "Villain calls and is playing $3200 behind, I call in the BB and am playing $4300 behind on the table plus $35,498 in my checking account, one rental property on the Jersey shore, and a 1956 Chevy Impalla with a rebuilt engine but ORIGINAL transmission".....

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to see some guy's 1K bet and raise him an El Camino once, but the damn casino insisted on "table stakes".

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

so what'd you do and what'd he have?

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]

sounds like he doesn't particularly want to get called here.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly - you hit the nail right on the "turnip" ( [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] rah rah rah)....

here's the thing.....I gave you guys the reasons for my checkraise and it felt right at the time and my reasoning still seems correct, BUT, then when he reraised it felt really odd to be faced with a bet and a decision that was basically like "okay, I'm guess I'm going to move all my chips in knowing that the way he played his hand it seems like all I can beat is a bluff and if I get called I'm probably in bad shape."......I don't know what to think about that, I don't like being in that spot.....

does that mean the checkraise was wrong?.....I still don't think so, because I think many MANY times he just calls my checkraise with a worse hand and then I value bet him on the turn/river and get his stack.....but so do I change my game plan once he reraises?....that doesn't seem right either because there is still the chance he is resteal-bluffing and plus it really seems like incorrect poker for me in this spot to raise just "to see where I'm at" particularly on the flop and out of positon and when the money's not all that deep and when I'm unsure of what a reraise by my opponent means.....

it's weird because it's such a simple hand, but it gave me a lot to think about in terms of the idea of making a commitment decision early on in a hand even when I'm not pot-committed and even when future action doesn't correspond with the information I made the commitment decision based on.....

it's like I'm deciding in advance upon a plan of action knowing that in the long run the overall plan is +EV, but the minority of times that it doesn't work out in my favor it seems like there's no real "abort" option and I am forced to make moves that are mistakes or at least moves that make it impossible for my opponent to make a mistake.....

does that make sense?......

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

Stop blue balling us and give us results please.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stop blue balling us and give us results please.

[/ QUOTE ]

we got it in, he had AK....

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

The check/raise is a move that really, really inflates a pot, and by check/raising you're basically committing yourself to a big pot. It's a dangerous move with one-obvious-pair, no-improvement-in-sight hands because it leads to exactly what you say, opponents playing perfectly against you.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

it's too bad you lost the hand, but it is kind of a tribute to la's friendliest that not one, but two guys stacked off with one pair.

Re: 10/20 Commerce - top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's too bad you lost the hand, but it is kind of a tribute to la's friendliest that not one, but two guys stacked off with one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL your day job must be comedian. Just reminds me that I need to get out more often. la or coltrane what day/times do you play? Gonna try and down there sometime when it's not raining