Second chance vs Thorladen
Open raiser was moderately aggressive, flat caller is Thorladen. Is Thor's range JJ+/AK here or are we just stuck and gotta go?
Poker Stars No Limit Holdem Tournament Blinds: t75/t150 9 players Converter Stack sizes: UTG: t4636 UTG+1: t3285 MP1: t6695 Hero: t3660 MP3: t3242 CO: t4165 Button: t11629 SB: t3485 BB: t8508 Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to t450</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t1350</font>, 2 folds, Button calls t1350 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t2025)</font>, 2 folds, MP1 calls t900 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t3375)</font>. Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t4275, 3 players) MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero? |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
I think we are supposed to check fold here. I mean once thor bets he has AK at worse and seeing free cards don't mean that much unless guys are calling three bets really light.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
wow gross. check fold i guess.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right?
I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
[ QUOTE ]
You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right? I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in [/ QUOTE ] Board: Ks Qs 6c Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 07.500% 06.92% 00.58% 274 23.00 { AdKh } Hand 1: 92.500% 91.92% 00.58% 3640 23.00 { KK+ } O RLY. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
as,
given that its thor, your really think if he puts another cent in we have anything other than 2 outs at best, and are just as likely to be drawing dead to runner (as in i dont think we even chop all that often, since i think thor is way more likely to 4-bomb or fold it). |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right? I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in [/ QUOTE ] QFT. I'd Shove. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right? I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in [/ QUOTE ] Board: Ks Qs 6c Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 07.500% 06.92% 00.58% 274 23.00 { AdKh } Hand 1: 92.500% 91.92% 00.58% 3640 23.00 { KK+ } O RLY. [/ QUOTE ] If this is his range gobbo wins [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
why the hell wouldn't he just shove KK+ pf if we are really check/folding this flop. id just stick it in hoping he misclicked preflop
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove. [/ QUOTE ] I think you misread the hand. We are the preflop reraiser. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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[ QUOTE ] Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove. [/ QUOTE ] I think you misread the hand. We are the preflop reraiser. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I'm saying instead of 3betting and putting in 36% of our stack with AKo, just shove. The second and third sentences had to do with postflop, now I see where I failed to communicate clearly. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Todd,
Later positions i just jam pre. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
only hands we beat will fold to a bet imo
and thats JJ and maybe AQs QQ KK AA has us beat and AK is just split pot so i prefer a check/fold |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
this is a c/fold but I bet 99% of you shove everytime.
I am not part of the 1% |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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Todd, Later positions i just jam pre. [/ QUOTE ] Care to elaborate why? My initial thought was to shove pre. In this case I'd take the same action whether I was MP or LP. What's your action if someone behind is shoving over your 3-bet? I assume you make a difference here between shortstacks and bigstacks? |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
This is a pretty messed up hand IMO.
Rocco, if i have a couple hundred less or we're in a couple positions later i just jam. I guess vs an unknown in this spot i 3 bet a nominal amount since (i think) he'll give me a wider range than a jam. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
but he's still only gonna flat call you with pairs and you lose whether or not you hit. jam pre with your whole reraising range imo
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
i swear to god thorladen has put me in this exact spot twice in meaningul tournaments where ive had hands around the 50th percentile of my assumed "range" and i find myself wondering if he's a superuser, and at what point he is going to ask me to eat chinese food with ozzy.
seriously, how many more times am i going to raise 99 in MP to see thor call me OTB with stacksizes being 40bb and me feeling helpless to the god of bridge. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
now that ive put my anecdote out of the way,
as played i think the flop is a clear checkfold however i typically just shove in 3600 in a tournament like the 2nd chance against an aggressive opener |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
i shove in the heat of the moment but this should be a checkfold. doubt he is even flatting JJ and QQ is close. This should be AA KK nearly always.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
This is not a c/f.
Shove |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
[ QUOTE ]
This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help. [/ QUOTE ] ya man, this is def no T7d, way out of yer area of expertise w/ less than 1/2pot in your stack, i cannot see any other play than to shove. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help. [/ QUOTE ] ya man, this is def no T7d, way out of yer area of expertise w/ less than 1/2pot in your stack, i cannot see any other play than to shove. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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This is not a c/f. Shove [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Thor's misclick frequency is really important in this hand's analysis.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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Thor's misclick frequency is really important in this hand's analysis. [/ QUOTE ] Thor's at least 70 years old, maybe 80+, so it has to be pretty high. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
You just don't have enough of a stack to c/f.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
just shove. because you posted this hand thorladen is sitting there with AA but so be it. its a cooler.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
as played i can't fold, even though i hate it. too much in pot, i don't rly think he's flatting here with AK. i dunno, maybe i am wrong. he prob has AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ. so it's tough no matter what and i don't like any result.
how do you guys play this pre generally? i was in a similar spot in the super tuesday on stars with AK in 2nd pos v a somewhat loose opener w/ a similar stack size. i reraised like bond18 and got in most of my chips pre, only to shove on a random flop and get called by 99. i rly thought it was a horrendous play by the opener but probably just as bad on my part. in EP v a loose opener with around 22bb, is this a std shove? |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Man this hand is just gross. I thought about this the whole drive from la to vegas and I think against thor it's a c/f. Any random it's an obvious shove.
This spot just suuuuuuuuucks. I agree though that all of us are jamming it in this spot if we ever find ourselves in it. Devo |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Why is it that people are discounting AK from his range? I think he has AK often enough here that folding is a big mistake.
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
flatting with AK? hard to believe. whats he callin to hit or somethin?
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Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
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flatting with AK? hard to believe. whats he callin to hit or somethin? [/ QUOTE ] What do you think his flatting range is? Thor isn't stupid and I doubt hes calling here with like KK to induce action, since your calling a shove if you have like AJ, and there are so many flops you can fold on. *Maybe* hes slowplaying AA to induce a 3way pot, but in general, I think hes probably calling here with hands that he thinks aren't monster favorites against your range. I'd say he has JJ-22 here more than he has AA, I think QQ is a very likely hand, but at the same time, theres 3 combos of QQ and 6 of AK +misclicks etc. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
he has a pair that is jacks or better. sometimes tens. stack sizes make it a push/fold with AK (like you said, he's not stupid) and i think he's either flatting with JJ/QQ to see what develops with the original raiser or flatting KK+ to induce more action. I don't think its that bad of a play.
Also, I dont think we are getting the right odds vs QQ+ AK with AJ if he were to cold shove. It seems close tho. |
Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
Why is noone suggesting a check and reeavluate? Is this terrible? It's not like he's 100% betting, plus we get to see MPs action before it's our turn.
In the heat, I probably shove though |
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