Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

I make my living teaching people how to improve on the LSAT. Toss me your questions about the test, test preparation, and the admissions process (I can't claim to be a total expert on admissions, but I'm at the end of this year's cycle after applying to 19 schools, so I can cover the basic stuff).

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

how do you make your living helping people on the LSATs if you just now applied to law school yourself? WTF

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

The LSAT has nothing to do with law, so I don't need a law degree or legal education to teach it. It only tests logic and reading comprehension. The LSAC claims no prior knowledge is required, but that's not true. I make my living teaching people all the things they're not supposed to have to know before the test.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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how do you make your living helping people on the LSATs if you just now applied to law school yourself? WTF

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Heh...I taught the LSAT for two years before starting at law school, and the first question I *always* had to answer was some version of this.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

1) any recommendations for good lsat review books?
2) how much time should be devoted to preparing for the exam to get you near your best possible score?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

How do I get a job for KAPLAN/Princeton Review/et al? I did very well on my LSAT and wouldn't mind earning some money during the school year. I could probably look online but this way you get to post another answer.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

I just finished writing my LSATs on the 10th. When can I expect the results? The proctor said "around" March 5th, what does that actually mean?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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I just finished writing my LSATs on the 10th. When can I expect the results? The proctor said "around" March 5th, what does that actually mean?

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2 weeks earlier, at least this was how it was for last decembers test

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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1) any recommendations for good lsat review books?

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Most retail LSAT books suck. You're going to get better books by taking a class. There are a couple reasons for this. First, the LSAC doesn't license real LSAT questions for any retail books (other than their own practice test books), but they DO license them for in-class materials. Second, most of the retail books are made by companies who also give classes (Princeton Review, Kaplan, Powerscore, etc.). To add value to their live classes, they leave certain information out of the books.

If you're not going to take a class, I'd get the most recent "Actual Official" books from LSAC. I'd also find a book that shows you how to identify all the game and question types and goes through a method for attacking each. "The LSAT Workout" from Princeton Review is pretty good for this, although some of it is geared more towards 165+ test takers (comparable to the difficulty of Kaplan 180, but the Workout organized and explained much better*). Avoid anything from GetPrepped, Arco, or Barrons. Also avoid the LSAT for Dummies and Cracking the LSAT.

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2) how much time should be devoted to preparing for the exam to get you near your best possible score?

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The LSAT is the most important admissions requirement, and admissions people could give a damn if your boss overworks you. Don't shortchange yourself on study time. If you're in school take the June LSAT so you can use summer break to study. (Quitting work is +EV here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Also, make sure it's quality time and you're not just pounding your head against the wall with practice tests. Part of your practice should be timed to get your pacing down. The other part should be slow and focused on understanding the test--not just the question/game you're on, but recognizing that question/game type elsewhere and knowing how it works. For instance, there are only like 7 types of games on the LSAT. Come up with a plan for diagramming each one so you don't have to get creative when you're actually taking the test.

*full disclosure - yes, I teach for Princeton Review.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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How do I get a job for KAPLAN/Princeton Review/et al? I did very well on my LSAT and wouldn't mind earning some money during the school year. I could probably look online but this way you get to post another answer.

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I think both Kaplan and TPR will audition you if you score in 95% or above. Some other companies only audition 98% or above. Auditions are like, "Teach us something new in 5 minutes. Go."

From what I've heard, Kaplan's training is more about classroom management and they assume you know the test. I've also heard they train LSAT, SAT, ACT, GMAT, and GRE all in the same group (can someone verify this?). TPR training was basically a 40 hour job interview where you had to learn their LSAT technique and teach it back. Having not taken their class beforehand, it was pretty rough. 1/3 of my class didn't get certified.

The money is great, and if you've got the scores, I highly recommend doing it.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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I just finished writing my LSATs on the 10th. When can I expect the results? The proctor said "around" March 5th, what does that actually mean?

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2 weeks earlier, at least this was how it was for last decembers test

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I got mine in 20 days. Check the LSAC website in a couple weeks. You can download your report a few days before it'll come in the mail.

SBR, did you get my PM?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

I understand that the normal route is to take the LSAT during your last year in college...but lets say for example that I really like taking standardized tests and decide to take it during my second year in college...will this have any effect, positive or negative, on my chances of getting into a decent law school? In other words, is there any harm in taking the test earlier than normal? Thanks.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that the normal route is to take the LSAT during your last year in college...but lets say for example that I really like taking standardized tests and decide to take it during my second year in college...will this have any effect, positive or negative, on my chances of getting into a decent law school? In other words, is there any harm in taking the test earlier than normal? Thanks.

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First I'd say you're on crack for enjoying standardized tests. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Your score is good 3-5 years after you take it, depending on where you apply. As long as it's new enough to be accepted, it'll be weighed the same--no harm done. I'd just check with your top 4 or 5 schools and see how far back they'll accept a score. Make sure you study and get a good score the first time. Even schools who'll take your highest score will see your lower ones (and how many you've canceled).

How many years out of school you are DOES make a difference, as most schools will weigh your GPA less (and thus weigh your LSAT more) the longer you've been out. Sounds like you'd be going straight through, so make sure your GPA is solid as well.

Edit: Princeton Review is giving free practice tests this week, if you just wanted to take a stab at the test for [censored] and giggles.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

I have heard some people say that it is not a test of intelligence and can be beaten with merely a ton of hard work... do you agree w/ this?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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I have heard some people say that it is not a test of intelligence and can be beaten with merely a ton of hard work... do you agree w/ this?

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I would half agree. It does measure intelligence to an extent (USMensa uses it as one of their admissions tests). If it were purely an intellegence test, however, it would be virtually impossible to improve your score (unless, of course, you could actually raise your own IQ).

The reason the test (and most tests) are so bad at showing intelligence or aptitude is that the test gets in the way of what it's testing.

There are a number of things about the LSAT--understanding how questions are phrased, what they're really looking for when they say such-and-such, knowing exactly what to expect on each section, etc.--that can improve your score. There are quirky things that are LSAT specific (for instance, in the real world, I can counter someone's argument by questioning their premise. On the LSAT, an answer that weakens a premise is always incorrect.) It's not as much of a carnival game as the GMAT (which is almost all about test-taking technique), but there is plenty of opportunity for improvement, especially from the scores around the median (students from 145-155 seem to be able to improve the most points-wise).

At the same time, I notice that most people eventually hit a ceiling that is very difficult to break through, and I think that barrier may be the limit of their mental ability (whether it be logic, comprehension, or just the speed at which they think).

IMHO, studying for the LSAT is about removing those non-content, test-specific barriers so that the score, as much as possible, reflects the student's actual aptitude.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

What did you actually score?... What schools are you looking at?... what kind of law do you want to practice?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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What did you actually score?... What schools are you looking at?... what kind of law do you want to practice?

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173 on the actual test (before I really learned how to take it). I'm considering waiting another year before going to school, so I may just take it again.

In at NYU, Northwestern, Berkeley, VA, Duke, Texas, Vandy, Notre Dame, USC, Baylor, and Tulsa (lol). On hold at Harvard, Penn, and Columbia. Waiting on Yale, Stanford (my top choice), Michigan, Chicago, and GMU.

At this point, I'm leaning toward IP law (copyright and fair use), maybe entertainment law. My undergrad degree is in music business, so it fits. I'm gonna wait until after 1L to decide for sure.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

What's your GPA you don't mind my asking?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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Tulsa (lol)

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haha, I lived there all my life til school, seriously considered doing ug there but it was far too expensive for the return... It actually does have a great reputation around here, don't know how their law school is ranked so terribly...

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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[ QUOTE ]
What did you actually score?... What schools are you looking at?... what kind of law do you want to practice?

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173 on the actual test (before I really learned how to take it). I'm considering waiting another year before going to school, so I may just take it again.

In at NYU, Northwestern, Berkeley, VA, Duke, Texas, Vandy, Notre Dame, USC, Baylor, and Tulsa (lol). On hold at Harvard, Penn, and Columbia. Waiting on Yale, Stanford (my top choice), Michigan, Chicago, and GMU.

At this point, I'm leaning toward IP law (copyright and fair use), maybe entertainment law. My undergrad degree is in music business, so it fits. I'm gonna wait until after 1L to decide for sure.

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Honestly, unless you really really really want to go to stanford (and believe me, I know how that feels, it was my ED for Undergrad) I would easily go to one of the schools you got in. Theres really no difference between 1-10, except for geographical location. If you wanna be in CA, USC/Berkely would be fine. Everyone learns the same stuff at every law school, especialy the first half of law school. The difference between 1-10 is less than penis waving ability. Pretty much all those people get offered teh same jobs, for you the interview/work experiance (and I think you're vastly ahead of most of your peers in work experiance, from your posts) will be the deciding factors. If a harvard guy and a Berkely guy get interviewed at the same place, I really doubt the harvard guy has any real edge, and I think your work experiance would far outweigh.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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What's your GPA you don't mind my asking?

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3.85

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

Ok, got an interview with KAPLAN for March 8. What do they pay approximately? Anything else about them I should know?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Tulsa (lol)

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haha, I lived there all my life til school, seriously considered doing ug there but it was far too expensive for the return... It actually does have a great reputation around here, don't know how their law school is ranked so terribly...

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Awesome! I was born and raised in Tulsa too. (Go Redskins!)

Nobody outside Oklahoma has heard of TU, so their law school can't be terribly selective. The USNews rankings are very heavily weighted towards LSAT/GPA, however, so Tulsa ends up way at the bottom with Cooley.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, unless you really really really want to go to stanford (and believe me, I know how that feels, it was my ED for Undergrad) I would easily go to one of the schools you got in. Theres really no difference between 1-10, except for geographical location. If you wanna be in CA, USC/Berkely would be fine. Everyone learns the same stuff at every law school, especialy the first half of law school.

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I've heard that, but the average Joe couldn't tell you where Berkeley is. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford I think do stand out a bit from the rest. My reasons for Stanford are that it's in CA, it's ranked high, and they have a Copyright and Fair Use center.

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The difference between 1-10 is less than penis waving ability.

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Some of use need all the help we can get. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Pretty much all those people get offered teh same jobs, for you the interview/work experiance (and I think you're vastly ahead of most of your peers in work experiance, from your posts) will be the deciding factors. If a harvard guy and a Berkely guy get interviewed at the same place, I really doubt the harvard guy has any real edge, and I think your work experiance would far outweigh.

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You're right for the most part. If my goal was only to be an attorney, have secure income, and live comfortably, I could go to Baylor almost for free, or Notre Dame for about half the cost. Better schools mean more options, though. If I want to teach or become a judge or something like that, rank, even within the top 10, means a lot more. If I'm gonna pay $8059830853085, I'm gonna do it at the best place I can get in.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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Ok, got an interview with KAPLAN for March 8. What do they pay approximately?

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Congrats. What was your score IYDMMA?

I don't know what Kaplan pays. TPR pay depends on the office, usually 20-30/hr. Some of the mom-and-pop companies pay more but don't run as many classes.

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Anything else about them I should know?

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Just be enthusiastic. As long as you can speak infront of people you'll be fine.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Tulsa (lol)

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, I lived there all my life til school, seriously considered doing ug there but it was far too expensive for the return... It actually does have a great reputation around here, don't know how their law school is ranked so terribly...

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome! I was born and raised in Tulsa too. (Go Redskins!)

Nobody outside Oklahoma has heard of TU, so their law school can't be terribly selective. The USNews rankings are very heavily weighted towards LSAT/GPA, however, so Tulsa ends up way at the bottom with Cooley.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christ, you went to Union too???? so did I

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9619/redskin9gi0.gif
Had my 10 year reunion this summer. Man, the new [censored] at the highschool was amazing.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Ok, got an interview with KAPLAN for March 8. What do they pay approximately?

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Congrats. What was your score IYDMMA?

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Got a 171 (99th), took it in 2004, I'm a 2L at Michigan. I'm curious to see if they have night classes during the summer (or at all); I'll be working in Detroit and wouldn't mind picking up some extra cash while I'm downtown.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, unless you really really really want to go to stanford (and believe me, I know how that feels, it was my ED for Undergrad) I would easily go to one of the schools you got in. Theres really no difference between 1-10, except for geographical location. If you wanna be in CA, USC/Berkely would be fine. Everyone learns the same stuff at every law school, especialy the first half of law school.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that, but the average Joe couldn't tell you where Berkeley is. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford I think do stand out a bit from the rest. My reasons for Stanford are that it's in CA, it's ranked high, and they have a Copyright and Fair Use center.

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The difference between 1-10 is less than penis waving ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of use need all the help we can get. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Pretty much all those people get offered teh same jobs, for you the interview/work experiance (and I think you're vastly ahead of most of your peers in work experiance, from your posts) will be the deciding factors. If a harvard guy and a Berkely guy get interviewed at the same place, I really doubt the harvard guy has any real edge, and I think your work experiance would far outweigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right for the most part. If my goal was only to be an attorney, have secure income, and live comfortably, I could go to Baylor almost for free, or Notre Dame for about half the cost. Better schools mean more options, though. If I want to teach or become a judge or something like that, rank, even within the top 10, means a lot more. If I'm gonna pay $8059830853085, I'm gonna do it at the best place I can get in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that, except the Berekely thing, I think the avg joe knows about USC and Berekely. I mean if its not a big deal for you to put it off for a year, go ahead, but I'd go to any of those schools you mentioned (I'd rather be at Berekely, and then USC tho) in a heartbeat. But then again, I'm not in the same "class" as you.

Heh, putting off going to law school isn't a terrible thing either. It's kinda hard.

Incidently, what was your Undergrad, I think you've said it on here before.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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Got a 171 (99th), took it in 2004, I'm a 2L at Michigan. I'm curious to see if they have night classes during the summer (or at all); I'll be working in Detroit and wouldn't mind picking up some extra cash while I'm downtown.

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Summer was pretty busy for me last year, and all my weekday classes are at night, and a few afternoons on Sundays. The June and October tests seem to be the most popular.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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Incidently, what was your Undergrad, I think you've said it on here before.

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I went to Belmont, which nobody has heard of. For the money I should have gone across the street to Vandy.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

Have you thought about attending some random T14, and trying to transfer to Stanford after your 1L?

I know what you mean about wanting to retake the LSAT though. I received a 173 without much studying (my studying consisted entirely of doing four practice tests), and I know I could have done a lot better quite easily. (For starters, if I'd known the room wouldn't have a wall clock, I could have gotten to 176 easily by bringing a watch/timer.) 173 is a frustrating score--good enough to get into a ton of places, but not necessarily good enough for HYS...

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

Hello Misfire,

Thank you very much for setting up this post.

I'm a junior at Stanford with a fairly strong GPA (3.8+). What kind of score should I be shooting for to get into HYS type of program? Which testing prep service would you recommend (I understand you have a little bit of self-interest in play here)?

Will the schools consider ethnicity at all? I'm listed as Hispanic FWIW.

-Card

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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I'm a junior at Stanford with a fairly strong GPA (3.8+). What kind of score should I be shooting for to get into HYS type of program?

Will the schools consider ethnicity at all? I'm listed as Hispanic FWIW.


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For the law schools at HYS, a 3.8 isn't stellar (about the 25th percentile), but the fact that it's a 3.8 from Stanford is a big plus as most schools will adjust your index # based on what school you went to and what your major was. A mathematics or engineering major with a 3.8 from Stanford will be seen MUCH more favorably than a business or sociology major from Belmont. (I'm stealing all of this from How to Get Into the Top Law Schools by Richard Montauk, BTW.)

Obv you should be shooting as high as you can go on the LSAT. I can't say a 17x will get you in here or there, but I'm gonna take a leap and say if you're not hitting top 2% at least on practice tests, you're probably not ready for those schools. I have heard being hispanic will work in your favor both for admissions and scholarships/grants. Someone recently told me that Stanford was one of the most favorable schools for underrepresented minorities. Has this been your experience as an undergrad?

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Which testing prep service would you recommend (I understand you have a little bit of self-interest in play here)?

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It only works in my self interest if you come to Nashville and take my classes. That being said, I really like Princeton Review's Hyperlearning course and materials. You get 6 proctored diagnostic exams, 20 3-hours classes, and a metric buttload of homework. Do your research on the teachers, though, because some offices have to take what they can get to make classes run. Be sure you get a pro with a good track-record. Ideally at TPR you'd want a coach who is "master-certified". I'm not quite there yet.

I've also heard lots of praise for PowerScore and Testmasters, but I have no personal experience with them.If TPR isn't available or you're just not comfortable with the instructors, maybe check them out. (I wasn't too impressed with PowerScore's retail books, FWIW, but the classes may be different.)

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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Have you thought about attending some random T14, and trying to transfer to Stanford after your 1L?

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I've thought about it, but I think that might hurt me more than help. I've also considered teaching GMAT in Dubai or somewhere to beef up my cultural well-roundedness. If I get rejected I'll have to think more about this.

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I know what you mean about wanting to retake the LSAT though. I received a 173 without much studying (my studying consisted entirely of doing four practice tests), and I know I could have done a lot better quite easily. (For starters, if I'd known the room wouldn't have a wall clock, I could have gotten to 176 easily by bringing a watch/timer.) 173 is a frustrating score--good enough to get into a ton of places, but not necessarily good enough for HYS...

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Yup. It's top 1%, but its the bottom of the top 1%. Sheesh. I really really really really really wish I had taken a class first. Until I trained to teach, I had no idea how little I knew about the test. Now I'm better equipped, but do I really want to take another 10-12 practice tests to prepare?

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you thought about attending some random T14, and trying to transfer to Stanford after your 1L?

I know what you mean about wanting to retake the LSAT though. I received a 173 without much studying (my studying consisted entirely of doing four practice tests), and I know I could have done a lot better quite easily. (For starters, if I'd known the room wouldn't have a wall clock, I could have gotten to 176 easily by bringing a watch/timer.) 173 is a frustrating score--good enough to get into a ton of places, but not necessarily good enough for HYS...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah also this is a really bad idea because honestly any top 20 school is going to have the same caliber of students. Ie its going to be really really hard, and to transfer you generally need really really good grades. The LSAT and the admissions system in general is bad at actually putting smarter people at better schools, the "smartness" gradation is very very slight from school to school. It's NOT like undergrad when you can say to yourself "well I'll just go to x state and get straight As and transfer." Law school prety much attracts the best and brightest from everywhere, which means it takes the kid from x random school who was really smart and didn't slack.

Just my 2 cents from someone who went to a good undergrad and isn't at the greatest law school. This school is tougher than undergrad, and these students are, as a whole, smarter than the kids I competed with at Wake.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

jesus man that is seriously eye opening that you got waitlisted at so many places with a 3.85 and a 173. where is your undergrad degree? did your recommendations suck?

i got a 174 with a 3.9 and assumed i was a lock most everywhere with probable at the big 3. guess i'd better actually spend some time writing my personal statement!

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

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jesus man that is seriously eye opening that you got waitlisted at so many places with a 3.85 and a 173. where is your undergrad degree? did your recommendations suck?


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I'm only officially waitlisted at 3 places. No rejections yet (fingers crossed). My undergrad was Belmont University (where? exactly.). I got recommendations from the two professors I had the most classes with (economics and music business), a neighbor of mine who is a professor and Pulitzer nominee who has known me since i was 11, and a former employer who has known me for 6 years and thinks I hung the moon. I got to read one of the professor's letters and the employer's letter, and both were very strong.

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i got a 174 with a 3.9 and assumed i was a lock most everywhere with probable at the big 3. guess i'd better actually spend some time writing my personal statement!

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I assumed the same. Penn suprised me (especially since they sent me an application fee waiver). Harvard and Columbia not so much. You just never know. I didn't think I had a snowball's chance at NorthWestern because I declined their interview.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

Related to law school and the law, but not a question for Misfire.

Overheard two 1L's talking, apparently worn out from the grueling experience that is law school.*

"Yeah, the work sucks now, but once you land that big firm job, it'll all be worth it."

Ah, to be young and naive again!

* This is sarcasm. Law school isn't really that time consuming. It took me 3 days to stop putting any effort into reading background facts and such on cases. Just get the main details and the why of each rule and you'll pretty much be fine.

Re: Ask Misfire anything about the LSAT/Law School Admissions
 

Thanks Misfire. That's around what I expected to hear. I am definitely shooting for 170+...however feasible that may be. I believe the bit about Stanford law school being more inclined to seek out underrepresented minorities. I have several friends in the Hispanic pre-law society (I'm not a member) who want to continue here through grad school. Stanford seems to always go out of its way to cater to minority groups.

If I decide to not go top 10, I am sure I could still go to Texas as that is my home state.

BTW, do these pre-law societies and extra-curriculars really have any weight in law-school admissions? What about legacy considerations (I had a cousin that went to Harvard...I am quite sure this doesn't mean shi*).