Probably a Disappointment
 

Hi Everyone:

Concerning Absolute Poker, we have been working behind the scenes. Wednesday (10/24/07) evening we sent them our official proposal which was to send a fact finding team put together by our attorneys to their offices in Costa Rica.

Anyway, we do not have an official response yet from Absolute Poker, but in a short preliminary conversation we did have on Friday, the indication was that they would probably not have us. Of course, this may change, and as soon as we at Two Plus Two have more specific information, I will post in more detail.

Best wishes,

Mason Malmuth
Owner and Publisher
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
www.twoplustwo.com

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

posted in wrong forum?

w/e BBV wut it do

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

What is 2p2s motivation for getting involved? To determine whether they should ever run ads on the website in the future?

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Well, I think this should give a clear indication as to whether they want to fix their mistakes, clean up their act and move forward as a business. Nice try though 2+2 !!!!!

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

I really don't understand why anyone from 2p2 is involved in this. Why? What can 2p2, Nat, and his colleague possibly do? I don't get it. Explain plz.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

BAN!


j/k

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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What is 2p2s motivation for getting involved?

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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

that's really nice Mason. Thanks for your efforts and for the information.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

"You know that N82 kid got to go down to Costa Rica all expenses paid?"
"You're [censored] me! You think we could swing something like that??"
"I could try......"

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

i see what you did there

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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I really don't understand why anyone from 2p2 is involved in this. Why? What can 2p2, Nat, and his colleague possibly do? I don't get it. Explain plz.

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They are an independant third party. They can report back what they were shown and what they were denied access to. The second bit is the key piece, and is reason they may even be able to get to see more stuff than AP intended if they do infact get invited.

The goal of such a visit is really to take unexpected tacts that force AP into either revealing something they would not otherwise reveal or flat out deny you the information. Neither is good from AP's perspective. AP of course games the whole thing beforehand to prepare. You can bet they have already had several meetings trying to figure out what questions may be asked and how they would answer them. (Not in response to 2p2 specifically, but in preperation for the audit and anyone else they invite down, e.g. Nat, to try to shore up their credibility.)

I would guess that AP would much rather have someone like Nat (25, not likely experienced in auditing or grilling people) than a small team with a lot of expertise and experience.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

This just strenghthens and solidifies Two plus Two's integrity in my eyes. Having somewhat same powers as a newspaper or news organization and being un-biased unlike some newspapers due to there advertising customers shows character.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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This just strenghthens and solidifies Two plus Two's integrity in my eyes. Having somewhat same powers as a newspaper or news organization and being un-biased unlike some newspapers due to there advertising customers shows character.

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I agree with this. A week ago people were complaining that 2+2 was completely silent on this issue. It seems the way Mason operates is he likes to gain a thorough understanding of the situation before making any sort of public position. For what it's worth I feel that their investigation into the PPA was very eye-opening and revealed how slimy that organization is (or was).

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

what it dew masoneeee

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Mason for mod.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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i see what you did there

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lol.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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I would guess that AP would much rather have someone like Nat (25, not likely experienced in auditing or grilling people) than a small team with a lot of expertise and experience.

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Yup.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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I would guess that AP would much rather have someone like Nat (25, not likely experienced in auditing or grilling people) than a small team with a lot of expertise and experience.

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Yup.

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<3 nat

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

this seems like an extremely premature thread..?

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

first floor

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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this seems like an extremely premature thread..?

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It has a purpose, you just don`t see it.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

yea i figured there could be a purpose, but knowing how incompetent AP is i doubt it.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

send Hans Blix.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Send Jesse Jackson.

Seriously, Absolute should be shunned.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Thank you.

A "famous" person that is willing to put their name on the investigation is much much better than what we have now. I don't agree with it, but that is the way the world works.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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They are an independant third party. They can report back what they were shown and what they were denied access to.

[/ QUOTE ]I can see how you can claim 2+2 is trustworthy, but as they've done quite a bit of business with AP "independent" just isn't true. Especially as clear evidence of cheating would be pretty bad for 2+2 indirectly.

The incentives there are for 2+2 clearly biases them to prefer this thing being fairly small. You may argue that they're above being influenced by that, but clearly there interests isn't served well by blowing the lid of a gigantic cheating scandal from someone they have done a lot of business with.

Someone truly independent wouldn't be depending on the poker industry for their income. Unfortunately that excludes most people willing to bother, so we should probably just look at someone who is known for having impeccable character. Barry G anyone?

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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this seems like an extremely premature thread..?

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2p2/mason has recieved some criticism for not acting on this matter. the most conspicuous poster to condemn was el diablo but plenty more have been vocal.

very good move for 2p2 to attempt an active roll and to notify us

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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I can see how you can claim 2+2 is trustworthy, but as they've done quite a bit of business with AP "independent" just isn't true.

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As far as I know we haven't done any business with AP for at least two years.

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Especially as clear evidence of cheating would be pretty bad for 2+2 indirectly.


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The report would come from a third party and we would have no influence as to what it would contain.

MM

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Mason,

I'm just a random poker player but I want to say a huge thanks for undertaking this. You didn't have to get involved, but there really wasn't anyone else with the experience and credibility to do it, so thank you.

It will be very interesting indeed if Absolute denies this request, given that they offered access and a fee to a 25yo with little experience of the shady side of gambling.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Private arbitration ftw.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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I really don't understand why anyone from 2p2 is involved in this. Why? What can 2p2, Nat, and his colleague possibly do? I don't get it. Explain plz.

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Mason and those he works with have been around in the gambling industry for decades, and have seen all kinds of shady operations, from the early days of dodgy underground cardrooms to the Planet Poker scandal to casino operations run by organized crime. There are very few people who have that kind of experience, and the fact that Mason has offered is a plus for online poker.

As far as I'm concerned, if Absolute denies this investigation they're basically admitting to still having criminal elements in their organization and/or significant undisclosed activities.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Yeah this is a good idea. If it gets more backing here absolute are almost forced to have them.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Mason,

Thank you for letting us all know that you are taking an active role in this scandal. It's much appreciated.

I think the current AP management would be very foolish not to accept, unless they have something to still hide.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Well, if they don't want well respected community individuals to see and report that they are a safe site to play on, the community itself just won't play on the site. Too bad and their loss. If they wanna hide something from us then it's their choice to lose out on millions, yes, millions of dollars ( 2+2, P5 poker forum goers consist of thousands). Idiots. Guess they really have their heads up with ass with the thinking that the payout they gave people was a permanent fix to a HUGE scandal. Doesn't solve a still tainted reputation.

But thanks to Malmuth to putting in the effort. We all appreciate it of course. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

TY

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Thanks for the try. I know everything I need to know about the allegedly "new" management team from this. I doubt the players have even changed, and the strategy surely hasn't.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

I feel bad for sklansky. The Absolute women are fine.

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Mason, I applaud the effort and commitment twooplustwo has shown related to the integrity of the game, as permitted by 2p2 lawyers.

However, I can't think of anything that you could provide as a service to AP, besides being able to slap your name on their product. As keeping with the quality of 2p2 current offerings I haven't a clue why you would attempt to pursue that avenue. Not to mention that it would be a strange time for 2p2 lawyers to allow pimping of the 2p2 name to internet gaming sites, especially one that allows americans.

As a publisher and owner of a publishing company, and having a website forum that runs OK withstanding, what qualifies you for fact finding? I do understand that consumers of your products, users of this website will be looking for some sort of "twoplustwo" statement regarding AP. So I understand your desire to keep any statements that are interprated as coming from 2p2 to be actually coming from 2p2. So i can see why you would want to go to AP, but I can't see why AP would want to hire you.

The nature of the accused infractions appears highly technical. And if I was consulting AP I would advise them to fix the vulnerabilities as priority number one.

And find a way to get the amateur sluths in good graces. A task it appears they are doing an awesome job at. With N 8 becoming a PR rep for them, and offering to match mikes charity contribution. I'll wait to see what adanthar gets, but he appears to be moving on of his own volition, so perhaps nothing.

The truth of the matter is that there are very few people that a capable of fact finding here. It's a relatively new business platform, and requires a different maybe even unknown skill set.

There are a number of sites that if you really wished to earn extra income, help to maintain the integrity of the game that would be willing to hire you in an attempt to prevent cheaters. As I understand it Stars has paid for some algo's to help in collusion detection. Colluders still exist, multi accounters, and bots. I would think that you would be able to offer something in the way of colluders, team play and multi accounters, but I'm not sure about bots.

Highest Regards,
DougShrapnel

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

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As far as I know we haven't done any business with AP for at least two years.


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That's interesting? Did you stop doing business with them back then because you suspected something wasn't above board?

Re: Probably a Disappointment
 

Malmuth:
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As far as I know we haven't done any business with AP for at least two years.

[/ QUOTE ]Ok, I assumed you had done advertising from them, or affiliates, later than that, but the point still stands. 2+2 isn't exactly independent from one of the bigger players in the online industry.

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The report would come from a third party and we would have no influence as to what it would contain.

[/ QUOTE ]Ok, mind divulging some more details as to whom actually would be authoring a report and doing the fact finding?

From your first post I thought you meant some people connected to 2+2, or the poker world. As somebody else said accountants and computer forensics people are probably far more suited, so if you thought to hire some consultants in that area, that's great.

Of course, there isn't much wrong with a 2+2-investigation in addition to outside-of-the-industry people doing one too. It would be a great datapoint, just not one I'd rely entirely on.

[ QUOTE ]
Mason and those he works with have been around in the gambling industry for decades, and have seen all kinds of shady operations, from the early days of dodgy underground cardrooms to the Planet Poker scandal to casino operations run by organized crime.

[/ QUOTE ]Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't also Malmuth et al also distinguished themselves by not doing a thing about any of that stuff?

I'm pretty sure I remember Sklansky saying he was staked by the mob in the beginning of his career as well as knowing about cheated games and staying away rather than interfere. Granted, those things are all fairly understandable, but it's not indicative of someone whom you'd really trust never to be bought either.