Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

So here is my interesting situation in the state of Illinois.

I get pretty much maximum financial aid. My mother makes like 26k a year with 4 kids. I get about 10k in grants and 5k in loans per year.

I was planning to get my English BA this May, then reattend ISU for 2 more years to get secondary teaching certification (by way of a 2nd bachelors).

I found out recently that you cannot get any money from grants if you have a bachelor's degree. So instead of going from 10k in debt to 20k in debt (like I expected)...I would be going from 10k in debt to 40k in debt, just by adding two years.

So I am now toying with the idea of switching majors in the next couple days to English Ed. This would make it impossible for me to get my BA in English. And, in theory, get 10k in grants again per year.

So basically I was getting my English BA as an insurance policy in case I didn't follow through the next 2 years and get my English Ed BA.
Is it worth $20,000 for that insurance policy?

Questions and comments and advice all welcome.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Question: Can you simply finish the English BA requirements but not apply for the degree/graduation? If yes, this seems like the easy answer.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Get a masters instead. There's plenty of money available.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Well, I have already applied for my degree/graduation (I didn't find out about this situation until a couple days ago). I should call the student office place and find out if I can indeed detract my application. WOrth a try.

And Misfire, I actually want to teach at a college level somewhat. But I also want to try high school. I can't get a Masters and teach high school...sooooooo, I am going to get my secondary certification first I think.

I do want to teach, I just dont know which level.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

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I can't get a Masters and teach high school...

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Says who? My HS had several teachers w/ their masters. Some taught HS during the day and college in the evenings.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Misfire,

In the state of Illinois, you wouldn't get hired out of college with a masters. Because the pay scale factors in both experience and education, no one would hire me coming out of college with 0 experience and a masters. It would be to their benefit to just hire someone with a bachelor's and 0 experience...less money.

It is becuase they're unionized (or whatever).

Basically as a teacher in the state of Illinois, you get a job, then get more education, which gets you more money.

So my tentative plan is to teach high school until I get my masters, then see if I can get a night class or summer class at the community college to test the waters.


That all said, I am going to be risking quite a bit if I make this switch. I will have nothing to fall back on and effectively lock myself into 1.5 years of classes and then a semester of student teaching to get my degree. If for some reason, which I really don't expect, I hate teaching...that student teaching to get my degree will be a huge hassle.

I am thinking it is worth risking gaining $10,000 to find out.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have already applied for my degree/graduation (I didn't find out about this situation until a couple days ago). I should call the student office place and find out if I can indeed detract my application. WOrth a try.

And Misfire, I actually want to teach at a college level somewhat. But I also want to try high school. I can't get a Masters and teach high school...sooooooo, I am going to get my secondary certification first I think.

I do want to teach, I just dont know which level.

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Huh? The no child left behind BS requires that you have a Masters, and a number of states required that you have it or get it withing x number of years after being hired.

Edit: Oh, you want to stay in IL. Eh, move somewhere warmer. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

I'm currently in a transition to teaching program, so I know a little about this. (I already have a master's in business, but my cert. area is physics, which is rare, so the schools will just have to deal with it. And my second master's in Ed.) They do talk about the master's problem in Ed. school, but I don't think it's a problem in the best districts. There, they want the best teachers and a few thousand more won't stop them from hiring you with a full set of degrees. But there's an even better way around the problem that a lot of us are doing, especially those of us in your situation. You can get certification while in a master's program while not actually getting the masters. Certification requires less hours than the masters, so you get that first, while qualifying for Stafford Loans, you get the job, without the masters, then complete the masters within the first year or two while teaching. You could probably have all the coursework done before your first job, just be short the thesis, then complete that while teaching.

You could also teach at a private school without certification, or do a provisional cert. program while teaching, but those are a whole other line of thinking that you may not be interested in. In any case, having a real degree, not just an education degree will be a real plus. Especially in English, where you'll be competing with a lot of Ed. majors with minors in English. And you might seriously consider getting the certification while in the Ed. masters, then switch back to an English master's, and avoid a whole lot of b.s. in the Ed. deptartment. I've got classmates planning to do just that, and it's also more valuable, though not necessarily easier.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

MrMon, I appreciate the reply and will have to reread to further digest....

I should make note that my degree won't be "just an education degree" probably. The English Education degree from here would be almost as marketable as a plain English degree outside of teaching.

It is also worth noting that I'm at one of the top universities nationally for education of teachers. States come here to career fairs with contracts in hand and hire blind. Nutty, but worth mentioning.

Anyway, your plan of the Masters/Certification isn't a bad idea, though I'm not sure how tangible it is, particuarly in terms of my money situation.

I would still qualify for loans, but as of right now, if I don't get my degree....then I qualify for $10,000 of grants at minimum over the next two years. If I get the Bachelor's, I lose those grants, whether I'm in a Masters program or the English Ed program.


I'm surprised that you think a BA in English Ed would be so susceptible to Ed Majors with minors in English. As I become surrounded more and more by English Ed majors in my English classes, I'm finding that most of them are getting only passable grades and/or they hate teaching. I have a relatively good feeling that if I get an English Ed BA in 2 years, that I would be in the top 10% of candidates between my grades and the ISU prestige.


Anyway, the teaching certification situation for me right now, would simply be getting the English Education degree. In theory I can then compete for a job in 2 years in most of Illinois. While I'm hardly a lock, being from this school with good grades is a start. I just need to excel at the actual methods and student teaching.

I'm going to talk to the advisor today to find out one very key thing. "If I switch my major to English Ed right now, and then next year don't like it, how hard will it be for me to switch back to English and just apply for graduation? Are there limitations such as needing your last 30 hours to be from teh major you're declare as?" Etc.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Actually, I was thinking an regular English major with teacher cert. was superior, but that may just be my bias. Personally, I'm terribly unimpressed by virtually anyone from the Education department. They seem more interested in politics than education and seem to think students are just potential leftist cadres in training.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

I should make note...Here at ISU, getting an English Education BA and getting certified if you already have an English BA is identical. (other than a slip of paper-the 2nd BA).

I actually won't be in the College of Education. I would still be in the CoFA or whatever English is in. My major is still more aligned with English than it is with Education or the CoE. I just have to take C&I classes is all.

I really need to decide on this somewhat soon. I'm going to see the advisor at 3 and he can switch me to English Ed if I want, effectively blocking my degree and giving me funding.

But I really want to have that English BA just because that would make me more marketable right? "Hi, I have an English BA AND an English Ed BA." Basically shows I'm more educated in English that most English Ed people. Blah.

Is it worth $10,000? Probably not. I hate this decision.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

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Is it worth $10,000? Probably not. I hate this decision.

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More degrees is always a good thing. Honestly, $10k is nothing once you secure that job. Do whatever will make your more attractive to a potential employer, period.

As someone said before, if a school is going to pass on you because you have a Masters and would start out at a few thousand more per year, you don't want to be at the school. It tells me they're willing to settle for anything less than the best and I can't think that would be an environment I would want to work in.

The idea that a school would pass up on someone who may be more qualified, boggles my mind. I know while I was goign to school in western NY the districts would pay for the teacher to get their masters. I had a few teachers who had PHD's that the districts paid for. Of course now NY requires a Masters to teach, so I wouldn't try there until you have your Masters (they do pay well though!).

As you can tell by my posts, I'm not an English Major. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Haha, thanks for the input Bandit Fish.

Seriously, I don't know how much it would matter in the real world, but having that 2nd degree could theoretically land me a position someday I wouldn't otherwise get (in theory).

And I will try to briefly explain my very little knowledge of how Illinois works.

Basically just about nowhere (except maybe rich chicago burbs) will hire someone with 0 experience and a masters. The pay increase is way too much for stingy schools. That said, schools will generally pay for like 3-6 credit hours per semester for an employed teacher to work on their Masters. So basically they're paying for your schooling, and as you get more credit hours/Masters, etc. you get raises in the pay scale. Additionally, you get pay raises every..4? years of small amounts.

So basically they want to lock you in when you have only a BA and no experience. Let you get experience as you get schooling, and then they can pay you accordingly.

I guess that is just the way it works here. If every person that wanted to become a HS English teacher suddenly all came out with Masters, the people with no masters would get the jobs easily...at least that's the impression I have gotten from both my school advisor and my step-mom who is currently a teacher.


Long story short, I'm seriously wondering if it is worth the gamble. Like TBF said, $10,000 in additional student loans would be close to invisible if I had a salary job as a teacher (30-35k est. for the area I want starting).

And let's not forget that I'm single, which makes it easier. No kids means more money saved.

Additional thoughts?

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

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As someone said before, if a school is going to pass on you because you have a Masters and would start out at a few thousand more per year, you don't want to be at the school. It tells me they're willing to settle for anything less than the best and I can't think that would be an environment I would want to work in.

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This is moreso that they can hire someone with equal field experience for less money. Sure they would like a more educated person, but they can't rely on you to be a better teacher just because you have more education...? I guess that is the idea.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

I think you may need to look at this in a slightly different way. The real key is, what is the salary difference between someone with a bachelors and a masters? It can be quite substantial, I've often seen numbers in the $7-10k range, though I'm sure there are variables by district, etc. Let's say it takes you roughly the same time to get the two bachelor's vs. the bachelor's plus teacher cert just short of a masters. You will start at the same salary this way. The difference is, you lose grant money (and some should available at the grad level), and have to switch to loans. You can get nearly 20k per year at the grad level, but you don't necessarily need to take all that. In Missouri, if you become a teacher at a public school, you repay the loan at an interest rate of 0.75% per year, I suspect Illinois may have a similar program. So just figure you need to repay whatever it costs to go to school, vs. no repayment. Let's say it costs $20k in loans to go the just short of masters route vs. a free two bachelors route. How many years will it take you to get the masters, with increased pay, with the school paying the cost, i.e. for free?

So let's say you get the masters after 1 year vs. 4 years. That's three extra years at the higher rate. Does that cover the cost of the loans? That's the breakeven point. Adjust according to how much it will cost in loans, the time difference in degrees, and the salary difference. And you need to see if you'll be at the same salary level after you have masters in both options - e.g. will you earn more with 4 years experience, 3 at masters, vs. 4 years experience, new masters. A lot of variables, but that's how you have to approach it.

A couple of other things to think about. If you get your degree now, you might be able to get into some sort of accelerated program that will start this summer and get you teaching by Fall '08. That could make a big difference, and it may be possible in a master's program vs. two bachelor's. Two, why not go for those suburban jobs? If they pay more and they'll take you, go for it. Three, don't believe everything you hear from the Ed School about teaching jobs. They want you to go sacrifice yourself in some inner city school while they hang back in their cushy university job. The Ed. School is full of people who teach one theory but never live it themselves. Don't play that game, look out for yourself, everything they say may not be true. Three, consider teaching outside of Illinois, especially if it makes a big difference in pay, how long all this will take, and what it will cost you. If the system is that screwy, look out for yourself and go elsewhere. Teaching credentials can transfer pretty easily from state to state.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

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Huh? The no child left behind BS requires that you have a Masters, and a number of states required that you have it or get it withing x number of years after being hired.


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This is not true. NCLB requires that you are "highly qualified" and are qualified to teach your subject area. This does not require a masters.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Mr Mon,

Thanks again. You're giving me a lot of ideas that I certianly would have never considered. I may have a few issues though.

Firstly, I am pretty sure it is way too late at this point to apply for grad school for the upcoming fall. So that might not work out very well in itself...yet.


Actually, let's say this first. I went and talked to the advisor and here is the result...

1) I am switching over to English Education. When I get that degree in two years, it is and IDENTICAL degree as if my major was English. Both are just listed as "Bachelor's in English." The only addition for the EE one is that from the STATE of Illinois (not the university), I will get a teaching certificate for high school level.

2) I can switch back at any time. If next January I realize that I hate teaching, I can switch my major back to English no problem, and apply for graduation next May. So in terms of my "insurance policy," it is still there.

3) In terms of marketing myself, the advisor said to basically make two resumes. Make one resume for teaching that focuses on my strong points and my certification. Make another resume that focuses on the boatload of English classes I took in my 6 years. In both cases, I will probably be asked why it took me 6 years instead of 4, and I think that if anything, this question would give me an opportunity to tout myself in an interview.

4) Basically as it stands, I will be going for a Bachelor's in English in 6 years, and it will carry with it the certification. This will save me roughly $10,000 (or it should anyway), and I don't lose a great deal.

Finally, I really really really like your idea MrMon about Masters. I just can't figure out how I would swing it at this point.


All,

I agree that teaching somewhere other than the state of Illinois, or my hometown specifically, would probably be beneficial. Truth is, I'm two years away from really having to make that choice of what location I want to teach in. A lot could change too. I love my family dearly and being close to them would be a huge boost for my general happiness. That said, for all I know both of my families (parents divorced long ago) could move away from my hometown and then I have no reason to stay there.


Soooooo,

Basically I'm just trying to tie up loose ends right now so that I can get back on track to get financial aid. I won't have a BA this May, but I can get one as soon as next December if I decide I hate teaching. Then I will be out some extra money, but I will have tried to do what I love.

I really hope I like teaching and all is well in the world. I also hope that I can get my masters and make some dolla bills doing teaching.


Again, I thank you very very much for your input. Given my current situation, I think I'm making the best move by switching over majors for now and reevaluating next fall.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Deadlines to graduate programs are arbitrary, especially in in education. I got in mine two weeks before the semester started. They can admit you provisionally, especially if you tell them you're mainly there to get certification. Go talk to the Ed school, I have almost no doubt they'll tell you you can still get in. At least it might open up some other options.

There is Ed school and there is college. They are two different things. Don't confuse them.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Huh? The no child left behind BS requires that you have a Masters, and a number of states required that you have it or get it withing x number of years after being hired.


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This is not true. NCLB requires that you are "highly qualified" and are qualified to teach your subject area. This does not require a masters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger Roger, my info was flawed. Thank you for the correction.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that teaching somewhere other than the state of Illinois, or my hometown specifically, would probably be beneficial. Truth is, I'm two years away from really having to make that choice of what location I want to teach in. A lot could change too. I love my family dearly and being close to them would be a huge boost for my general happiness. That said, for all I know both of my families (parents divorced long ago) could move away from my hometown and then I have no reason to stay there.


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Well I'm a firm believer in seeing other scenery. I've moved over 1000 miles twice in the past three years. First was transferring from western NY (where I grew up) to NW Louisiana. After seven years working that job, I got fed up and decided it was time to actually do something with my life.

Now I'm in eastern NC and have just started going back to school, so I sort of know how you feel. Granted I'm not going to become a teacher, thats something I don't have the patience for, (teachers should be paid a minimum of four times what they are for the crap they have to deal with!), but I'll hopefully end up with degrees in Aerospace Engineering and Mechanical Engineering. My head hurts just thinking about all the math. :/

I don't personally know how most schools pick teachers, but honestly if they're hiring people based upon being able to pay the person they hire less (which is what it seems like more than any sort of qualifications either candidate may have, from what you're describing), that frightens me.

I do know New York State pays teachers fairly well, and they now require you to have a Masters before you can even get the job. It used to be you had a few years to get the Masters and you couldn't get tenure until you finished your Masters. Just to give you an idea, starting pay around Rochester, NY is ~35k. In a lower paying district my mother was making ~60k/year after 21 years (she retired in 2000). I had teachers in highschool who were making 75k/year with 30 years. This was in the early-mid 90's too. If you can deal with Chicago weather you may want to look into NY state [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I wonder how many times I'll end up editing this post?

Ok as I said earlier, 10k is a drop in the bucket if thats all it will cost you to end up with more or better degrees.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

Bandit,

I found out though, that I wouldn't actually have had any more degrees.

I thought: I could get a BA in English now and then in two years a BA in English Education. This would be more marketable for a job, yadda yadda.

Reality per my advisor: I wouldn't have gotten a second BA. You can't have two BAs in the same major. Both of those are "Bachelors in Arts - English Major." The only difference is that for the English Education track, the STATE of Illinois gives you the teaching certificate. The school doesn't give me anything else.

So in reality, I wouldn't have gained a damn thing by getting this degree (except maybe for marketability outside of teaching). And even that is easily fixed, I will just have to get to the interview and then I can explain that I am basically overqualified compared to other teachers (becuase of 2 years of English major) or compared to other English-related jobs (becuase I had teaching classes...this could be valuable in a job I was training or something).

SO long story, it wouldnt be worth the 10k drop whatsoever it turns out. You certainly had me convinced that it might be worth it, but after talking to the advisor....it really wouldnt have been much. It simply would have been 2 more years of education, which I'm getting anyway.

And your numbers seem roughly equivalent to my hometown area. But that is 2007 numbers, not 1995 numbers.


As for location, it is so early too try and figure that out. I have 3 semesters of class and then student teaching before I'm done now. I have always wanted to look into NoCar or SoCar, because of the weather and such. Do you recommend North Carolina as a place to visit some and find out if I like it there?

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bandit,

I found out though, that I wouldn't actually have had any more degrees.

I thought: I could get a BA in English now and then in two years a BA in English Education. This would be more marketable for a job, yadda yadda.

Reality per my advisor: I wouldn't have gotten a second BA. You can't have two BAs in the same major. Both of those are "Bachelors in Arts - English Major." The only difference is that for the English Education track, the STATE of Illinois gives you the teaching certificate. The school doesn't give me anything else.

So in reality, I wouldn't have gained a damn thing by getting this degree (except maybe for marketability outside of teaching). And even that is easily fixed, I will just have to get to the interview and then I can explain that I am basically overqualified compared to other teachers (becuase of 2 years of English major) or compared to other English-related jobs (becuase I had teaching classes...this could be valuable in a job I was training or something).

SO long story, it wouldnt be worth the 10k drop whatsoever it turns out. You certainly had me convinced that it might be worth it, but after talking to the advisor....it really wouldnt have been much. It simply would have been 2 more years of education, which I'm getting anyway.

And your numbers seem roughly equivalent to my hometown area. But that is 2007 numbers, not 1995 numbers.


As for location, it is so early too try and figure that out. I have 3 semesters of class and then student teaching before I'm done now. I have always wanted to look into NoCar or SoCar, because of the weather and such. Do you recommend North Carolina as a place to visit some and find out if I like it there?

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Oh, well in that case carry on!

I am fairly sure there are a number of resources onlien that can give you an idea of starting pay for teachers in different areas around the country.

Well NC and SC are beautiful states, but honestly most southern states pay teachers next to nothing. A friend of the family teaches middle school Social Studies and after having been there awhile he's only making ~30k, so if you're looking for good pay I'd avoid NC public schools. Heck the community college here starting pay is 34k. Thats sickening. NC does have lots of plusses, but teachers salary isn't one of them. Actually, I think Louisiana paid better than NC does which is pretty surprising, but I cannot recommend that anyone move to Louisiana.

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

eeeeee...I did not realize the pay in NC was lower than it was here. I thought it would almost certainly be higher. Really though, all that matters for that is the comparison of standard of living too.

One thing I had thought about (I hope I didn't already mention this in this thread, but I'm lazy and not checking), is the idea of--if possible--getting hired in the burbs area somewhere and working for a few years there and make a ton of money and save save save. Then move back to local area when the time is right (read: job openings), and have some nice cash to sit on here for a bit and live a little easier.

I am disappointed to find that out about NC and SC. I really didn't think they'd pay less than the ol' midwest (non-chicago) areas. The weather woudl still be an improvement though. Maybe I will have to make an excuse to roadtrip to NC next summer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting Grants and Loans situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
eeeeee...I did not realize the pay in NC was lower than it was here. I thought it would almost certainly be higher. Really though, all that matters for that is the comparison of standard of living too.

One thing I had thought about (I hope I didn't already mention this in this thread, but I'm lazy and not checking), is the idea of--if possible--getting hired in the burbs area somewhere and working for a few years there and make a ton of money and save save save. Then move back to local area when the time is right (read: job openings), and have some nice cash to sit on here for a bit and live a little easier.

I am disappointed to find that out about NC and SC. I really didn't think they'd pay less than the ol' midwest (non-chicago) areas. The weather woudl still be an improvement though. Maybe I will have to make an excuse to roadtrip to NC next summer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Well NC and SC don't have the money that states like IL and NY do, so pay ends up being lower. Cost of living isn't that much lower (that depends on where in each state you're comparing obviously).