2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

I believe this question belongs here but if not please advise.

Today at the woods I got there really early.. 830am.. Just as I came in a new table opened up and I soon found myself sitting with the older crowd. They are all nice guys and Ive played with most of them a few time but their play is so tight Im not sure how to squeeze a few extra bucks out of them. I am currently averaging 3.5 BB an hour at the usual loose tables so this put a big speed bump in the road

Two quick examples is QJ suited on the button. Rock calls. turn is 2 9 10 rainbow. I check he checks. Turn is a Jack. I bet he rapid raises. I say "so youve got KQ?" and I fold. He doesnt even have the sense not to show me the KQ.. he made $6 on the deal.

Second example is same character raises UTG+2 .. might as well had his aces face up. I have 78suited BB so I call figuring I have a 33% chance to crack him. He let me check it down to the river almost catching a straight and shows his aces... short story long.. Tight.

Question.. How do I get more money out of these guys.. I know they are no fools and constant aggression wont be feared by them. I opened up my limping range on the late side with some success (q9 suited, J8 suited) but short of that.. what do I do? I see these guys spread out most days but days like this are bound to come up again.

Thank you for taking my call and Ill take my response off the air. (NPR anyone?)

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

rock garden + 2/4 draconian rake = dont play that game.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

KIT is right. If you're paying a big bet or more per hand in rake, you need to be getting PAID when you hit your hands. Find a new table. If I remember correctly, the 4/8 tables at foxwoods were absolutely crushable, and that's back before I knew what a free-card raise was.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

At that hour there were only two tables playing and the other was full.. Im currently waiting to build up my bankroll up enough to safely move to 4/8. At the current rate I need about 50 hours more play at 2/4. Which I dont mind doing at all because Im still learning.. for example I dont know how to successfully use the free-card raise yet.

Rake aside, from a theory standpoint.. what can I do against these guys short of leaving the table?

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

I play in a 4/8 FullKill game some weeknights, and usually half the table is real rocky like this. Rake issues aside, I believe good aggresive play should beat the rocks for a good rate over time.

These guys are totally missing all value from their winning hands. Sure, you don't get paid tons on your big hands. But they are constantly missing value against you. Every time they miss a value bet that you would have made, you profit. You aren't going to lose nearly as much as you should on the inevitable coolers. Those add up.

I actually believe an expert may make more in a tight game like this (again, rake aside). In the no-foldem loose games, the pots get so big that everyone is only slightly wrong to be chasing. But these rocks are missing full value bets on practically every winning hand of theirs.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

I think the general answer is "play more aggressively". In a game like this, C-betting with UI big slick might actually take down the pot, where as in many 2-4 games betting into the field with that hand is sort of like peeing into the wind.

The problem is that plays like blind stealing and winning pots heads up are hard to do profitably with a huge rake. Good luck.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

I still can't figure out how anyone can build up much of a roll playing 2/4 live. To be honest, I wasn't a winning player nor did I build up my roll more until I moved up to 4/8 & higher(I know it sounds sad but it is true). I know Gobblydegeek plays 2/4 and he seems like a solid player but it must take forever to do at 2/4.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Gobbley is on like a 6 month downswing if i'm not mistaken...before that he won at a good rate. If you win 3.25 big bets per hour, like OP says he's doing, that ain't bad (I currently am at around 1 big bet per hour at 6/12, so he's actually making more than I am), but I can't imagine that sort of win rate is sustainable. Are the players THAT terrible?

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two quick examples is QJ suited on the button. Rock calls. turn is 2 9 10 rainbow. I check he checks. Turn is a Jack. I bet he rapid raises. I say "so youve got KQ?" and I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he is playing that tight, I certainly would have C-bet the flop. Maybe he would fold his hand there.

[ QUOTE ]
Second example is same character raises UTG+2 .. might as well had his aces face up. I have 78suited BB so I call figuring I have a 33% chance to crack him. He let me check it down to the river almost catching a straight and shows his aces... short story long.. Tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key here you got to draw as cheaply as you could, and then he played fast late. Your implied odds are huge in this game, so you should lean toward the hands that thrive in an implied odds environment.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

if the 2/4 foxwoods game is rocky, look for a new table or try a juicy looking 4/8. it can't be rocky rocky though in my experience. it's probably just passive old guys who don't pay off a lot. try bluffing at more orphan pots and raising more preflop in position.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

this game is absolutely unbeatable. No one on earth could beat it. The rake is just too nasty.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have 78suited BB so I call figuring I have a 33% chance to crack him.

[/ QUOTE ]

fold preflop. Even w/o the rake messing up your odds, you are screwed. With the rake, your situation is OMG bad.
Also, your math is wrong.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

41,095,296 games 0.031 secs 1,325,654,709 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.463% 22.30% 00.17% 9162324 69066.00 { 87s }
Hand 1: 77.537% 77.37% 00.17% 31794840 69066.00 { AA }


---

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

do not play 2-4, 4-8 at foxwoods during the week until at least 5 pm or so.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Don't play 2-4 if you want to make money at Foxwoods the rake is too high.

The 5-10 with a kill is a good game if you can afford it.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

I keep hearing you say that but Ive made all the money I have so far at foxwoods midday on weekdays when it rains (I dont work when it rains) and saturday mornings which of course get pretty good.

I know the rake is high but as stated before

1 Im still making a good bit of money
2 Im using this time to gain experience I need to move up
3 Im building up the bankroll from one $100 buy in and its not that hard.

Its kind of a project for me so I dont mind spending the time. I spent 2 years playing NL.. home games, bars, online etc so Im coming from another world.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Does anyone have an opinion on how straddling affects the psychology of this sort of lineup?

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Is it possible to get a bunch of seniors and rocks, who play 2/4, to straddle? Frankly, I dont think so.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gobbley is on like a 6 month downswing if i'm not mistaken...before that he won at a good rate. If you win 3.25 big bets per hour, like OP says he's doing, that ain't bad (I currently am at around 1 big bet per hour at 6/12, so he's actually making more than I am), but I can't imagine that sort of win rate is sustainable. Are the players THAT terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]


I really can't believe that 3.25 BB an hour is sustainable with the rake at 2/4.

The general consensus is that 2 BB hour is the "max" for a live low stakes game, 3/6 and above, but 1/2 and 2/4 the rake is crushing.

1 BB an hour is certainly sustainable at 6/12 playing TAG.


AB

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

OP, the general consensus here seems to be that you've found yourself in a bad game and that you should try to avoid. That being said, if one of your goals is to become a better poker player, playing in tough games on occasion is certainly not a bad thing. Two things I have to stress:

1. Good players have downswings. Big ones, like 100 big bets or more, are commonplace. If/when that happens, don't get discouraged.

2. Don't count on your true win rate being 3.25 big bets per hour. Unless the people you play with don't even know the rules of the game (which doesn't sound like the case), I think you're probably playing well and running hot. Enjoy the heater [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have an opinion on how straddling affects the psychology of this sort of lineup?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not enough to justify doing it every round.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Can you clarify this statement:

"I opened up my limping range on the late side "

Is it a rock garden and you are limping late or are there multiple limpers already and it's not a rock garden?

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

You need to get much more aggressive at these tables. On your QJ with the 9T on the flop you need to bet every time. I hope you raised QJs preflop too. I would raise more hands preflop and bet more hands. Heck, raise any Q, K, or A preflop when in late position with no limpers to steal the blinds. Also raise suited connectors, suited aces, etc... even in early position. Bet any flop and most turns and if they're really rocks they'll fold often enough to make this play profitable. Rocks don't like lots of preflop raising and this will mess with them. They'll start giving you more action too. Of course, you'll need to change gears after someone looks you up, but the table should be better by then. This style of play is tricky and requires good post flop skill, but it can loosen up a table in a hurry and start to get you action on your good hands.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

In a lot of these games, even the rocks will recognize an aggressive blind stealer and tend to call down with any pair, sometimes seeing the river with A-high headsup.

In LP, with one rock limper, I'd raise stuff like suited aces, pocket pairs 55+, suited broadways, etc. When they play "fit or fold" too often then you can add in the SC's and stuff that has less showdown value because you will be able to steal so much. Sometimes you can sense the pendulum swinging the other way; they are tired of this hotshot raising every other hand - then you get into solid value-bet mode and get paid off.

I don't like raising a speculative hand in EP against a lineup of rocks. Sometimes you may even open limp with a SSHE raising hand (ATs, KQs) to pull in weaker hands. I still think it's correct to raise big offsuit hands.

These guys are beatable in a no-rake game, but I don't think you can really win when pots are headsup and $1 comes out of the pot on the flop and what is it, the next $1 comes out at $10?

The short answer to OP's question is obviously change tables ... and move up to 4/8 ASAP.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

Hello everyone.

I put quite a bit of time into playing 2/4 at Foxwoods. Perhaps I have gotten lucky, but I managed to earn 1.3 BB / hr over a 427 hour period. However, I have never played against a rock garden in 2/4. Usually it was the polar opposite with 6+ players in each pot.

I know this may be attributed to variance, but I do feel that I played fairly well compared to the competition.

I have since moved up to the 4/8 game. Hopefully, I can maintain and improve on this rate.

Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a lot of these games, even the rocks will recognize an aggressive blind stealer and tend to call down with any pair, sometimes seeing the river with A-high headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's partly my point. At some point you'll get looked up. After this happens, you can change gears and get paid off on your better hands as no-one will give you credit for a hand.

I agree that getting a table change and moving up to 4/8 is the right thing to do, but sometimes there's only one table running and it isn't too exciting. I was playing 4/8 at Venetian over the weekend and there was only 1 table with little action. I found the strategy I outlined above to be very effective at making me money and waking up the table.