Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

Seat 1 is awesome at razz and we are all here to learn from him.

Seat 6 is a thinking player but definitely overaggressive in every type of stud game.

Razz ($30/$60), Ante $5 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (9.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

5th Street - (9.17 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (12.17 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (15.17 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (17.17 BB)

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

Man, I don't even know what to think. The more I learn about poker the less I understand, for real.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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Man, I don't even know what to think. The more I learn about razz the more I want to kill defenseless animals.

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~yea I didn't realise this was the stud forum pls to be not flaming me.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1 is awesome at razz and we are all here to learn from him.

Seat 6 is a thinking player but definitely overaggressive in every type of stud game.

Razz ($30/$60), Ante $5 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds



[/ QUOTE ]
Excuse me while I ask a simple-minded question. If Seat 1 is KTBA (Known-to-be-awesome) would it make sense, since he called a raise and reraise. to put him on 529 considering the board? I'm asking what makes an "awesome" player enter a hand with a 9 in the door?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Excuse me while I ask a simple-minded question. If Seat 1 is KTBA (Known-to-be-awesome) would it make sense, since he called a raise and reraise. to put him on 529 considering the board? I'm asking what makes an "awesome" player enter a hand with a 9 in the door?

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I assumed that was tongue in cheek, since he limped showing a 9 and then called when it came back 2 to him.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

i never play razz but even against any 2 reasonably bad hands isn't 5th clearly a fold

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

I was going to say fold 4th when it's 2 more bets because we should expect seat 1 to cap. If we look at it in this way the pot is like 18 bets (9 to start+their 8 cap+1 we put in already). Even getting 6:1 here I thought we ran the risk of getting jammed on 5th. However now I am liking 4th. Actually I hate it, but I hate folding even more.

5th I hate too but getting 11:1 I think this may actually be the correct play. Too lazy to look at our equity but it probably isn't so awful against their range because their boards suck and our draw draw is good and surprisingly live.

7th is meh but I make worse calls constantly and somehow win the pot so whatever.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

Our draw is good on 5th? We need 2 cards... I think hero's equity is around 20% here and he's probably going to have to put in 3 bets into a pot that will either be 13 bets on the end (if other opponent folds) or 15-16 (if he doesn't). If hero folds without making a 9 then it's between 14:2 and 12:2 which is a lot closer but still not great.

4th is just kinda of tragic because calling 1 is OK here I think, nice pot, good live cards, but then he gets stuck and has to call another. I assume you'd have folded if it was 2 back to you instead of one at a time?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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I assume you'd have folded if it was 2 back to you instead of one at a time?

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He had to call 2 bets the second time around.

FWIW I'm folding 4th when I have to call 2 more bets but when I can look at the hand after the fact I think it may actually be correct to continue on both 4th and 5th.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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I assume you'd have folded if it was 2 back to you instead of one at a time?

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He had to call 2 bets the second time around.

FWIW I'm folding 4th when I have to call 2 more bets but when I can look at the hand after the fact I think it may actually be correct to continue on both 4th and 5th.

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Ah, so it is. I am not a fan of this converter when it comes to figuring out the action.

5th, if it's a call, is *really really* close.

7th, my immediate thought is fold but really it depends on the opponent. Most opponents are not going to bet a 9 into two people on the end unless they have a board lock, and hero could have a 7 or 8 on the end, villain must know hero is drawing. So to me it smacks either of improvement on villains part of a pure bluff. Still, J high is not a good bluff-catching hand because villain could be bluffing with T high the whole way. The pot is huge and your other opponent didn't call which is nice.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

Or wait, is hero playing on absolute and has a 7 with a2667?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
5th, if it's a call, is *really really* close.

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what do you think seat 1 has in the hole?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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5th, if it's a call, is *really really* close.

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what do you think seat 1 has in the hole?

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Could be anything, right? So I give him ** in the hole (any 2, paired or not) and I give your thinking player (8- 8-) which maybe is a little generous but actually doesn't change much.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Your equity on 5th is 20%. That's pretty close given the effective odds.

If I give BOTH players ** in the hole, your equity is only 25%.

BTW, Seat 1 can have total jack crap in the hole, and even be paired, and you're STILL only at 30%. Now, 30% is not bad for the size of the pot, but you have to believe that Seat 1 definitely has nothing *at all* and that isn't true often enough. Awful players get hands too.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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5th, if it's a call, is *really really* close.

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what do you think seat 1 has in the hole?

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Could be anything, right?

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Ehh...he's terrible, but he's playing 30/60 razz. This means he probably knows something about 'poker', just not 'razz'.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

I would have flat called 3rd with a 6 showing, and my cards not particularly live, but I am not saying that is the best play.

The call of 5th is probably OK with the pot so large.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

Every time I see a 30/60 Razz hand posted I get excited that maybe I will be able to find a good 30 game, as my experience is that any time a 30 game goes it is good. Much to my pleasure, I log on to Stars a bit ago and see a 4 handed game. I am now sitting out because these dirtbags are just folding every hand, not playing horribly at all.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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5th, if it's a call, is *really really* close.

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what do you think seat 1 has in the hole?

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Could be anything, right?

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Ehh...he's terrible, but he's playing 30/60 razz. This means he probably knows something about 'poker', just not 'razz'.

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I guess I have no idea what you're getting at then. ** is about the best range you'll be up against, the more you tighten the range the worse it gets for you. If your opponents both have (8- 8-) in the hole then your 5th st equity is more like 15% (5:1) and it's a fold.

Unless you're fairly certain Seat one had something like (A2)9 in which case you're still in awful shape.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you're fairly certain Seat one had something like (A2)9 in which case you're still in awful shape.

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if that's true, I'm really not, ducy?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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Unless you're fairly certain Seat one had something like (A2)9 in which case you're still in awful shape.

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if that's true, I'm really not, ducy?

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No, gotta admit I don't see it. A2 is actually one of the best possibilities of any decent hand he could have because he has some of your pair cards. But I still see you as a 3:1 dog in this particular case. If he has exactly A2 you can call but I just don't see how you can put him on that for sure. Plus if he has something like (34)9 that doubly bad (now you're a 9:1 dog)

Anyway, I'm just a low level donk and at this point I'm just guessing.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

OP is reading the 9 for an ace in the hole. I think he needs to have it in order for the 5th st call to be correct. to make the call correct you have to know when to continue on 6th because there are scenarios where you might be dead on 6th but think you are not, which will prove to be very costly.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

I don't know what we gain by reraising 3rd. We have a complete and a call, so I would assume we are at best slightly ahead of either opponent. With the 6 showing and not being real live, we may not have the best hand. Having A2 rather than 45 is only a very slight advantage, assuming the cards are equally live. You have to assume the 9 will fold to the reraise. Also, with a 6 showing, you narrow your range to exactly two wheel cards, and probably atleast one 2 or 5.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1 is awesome at razz and we are all here to earn from him.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

I like the raise on third, before the awesome player realizes his hand is crap. Pure value.

Fourth is a pain in the balls. If you knew you were in second place, okay, but here you're pretty sure you're in last place. Given the live one, once you call one bet, I guess you can call the other two. It sucks though.

Fifth looks ugly, but getting 11:1 and with so many live cards to catch (3,4,5,7,8, and what the hell, 9), you're about a 2:1 favorite to improve, and if you do, you'll have half the stub to catch on the river.

Six came down about as good as possible. Easy call.

The river sucks, but it's one bet into a big pot, so I call.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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I like the raise on third, before the awesome player realizes his hand is crap. Pure value.

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If you think there is a decent chance the 9 will limp/call multiple bets, then the reraise on 3rd is great. However, usually, you just force the 9 to play correctly.

I don't really think the reraise is bad, but I prefer to flat call, particularly since the reraise puts your hand face up, almost to the exact hole cards.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

If the guy has an ace in the hole 100% of the time, it looks like you are even money on 5th to fold or call. If he ever has, say, a three instead of an ace, you have to fold. Right?

There has been so much thoughtful discussion amongst the micro stakers lately, it's been great. I hope we get to hear some of your thoughts on this hand. The suspense is killing me!

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

The best thing about this hand is that seat 1 is on another forum posting about the fish who called him down with a jack.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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If the guy has an ace in the hole 100% of the time, it looks like you are even money on 5th to fold or call. If he ever has, say, a three instead of an ace, you have to fold. Right?

There has been so much thoughtful discussion amongst the micro stakers lately, it's been great. I hope we get to hear some of your thoughts on this hand. The suspense is killing me!

[/ QUOTE ]
Is "the guy" seat 1? I don't know how much rationality we can assign to seat 1's play, but he should pretty much never have an ace in the hole. I don't think he bets out drawing dead. Seat 1 almost always has two wheel cards other than an ace in the hole.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[/ QUOTE ]Is "the guy" seat 1? I don't know how much rationality we can assign to seat 1's play, but he should pretty much never have an ace in the hole. I don't think he bets out drawing dead. Seat 1 almost always has two wheel cards other than an ace in the hole.

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How is seat 1 drawing dead even with a split pair of aces? He isn't on 5th, nor on 6th, and may have caught on the river. As for the "rationality" of his play, most fish have some logic to their actions however misguided it may be. Once in a while you come across a complete spew monkey and then you just have to make a reasonable hand and show it down. Seat 1 strikes me as an "A2 is drawing to the nuts" type of fish and thus OP's play was "reasonable".

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is "the guy" seat 1? I don't know how much rationality we can assign to seat 1's play, but he should pretty much never have an ace in the hole. I don't think he bets out drawing dead. Seat 1 almost always has two wheel cards other than an ace in the hole.

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How is seat 1 drawing dead even with a split pair of aces? He isn't on 5th, nor on 6th, and may have caught on the river. As for the "rationality" of his play, most fish have some logic to their actions however misguided it may be. Once in a while you come across a complete spew monkey and then you just have to make a reasonable hand and show it down. Seat 1 strikes me as an "A2 is drawing to the nuts" type of fish and thus OP's play was "reasonable".

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No, OP is the Omaha/8 player overplaying A2. I would assign some rationality to seat 1's play and assume he does not have an ace, based on his action on 5th street. He would be in terrible shape with Ax97A, even if not technically drawing dead.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is "the guy" seat 1? I don't know how much rationality we can assign to seat 1's play, but he should pretty much never have an ace in the hole. I don't think he bets out drawing dead. Seat 1 almost always has two wheel cards other than an ace in the hole.

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If we know or strongly suspect that seat 1 has two non-ace wheel cards in the hole, then we should fold this hand on 5th. Isn't that a given? Since we didn't fold this hand on 5th, we must put seat 1 on exactly A 8- in the hole, or what?

I don't really get it. It looks like either a joke hand, or a bad call down to me -- but then the only thing I've ever done at 30/60 is give away my hard earned money, so what do I know?

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, OP is the Omaha/8 player overplaying A2. I would assign some rationality to seat 1's play and assume he does not have an ace, based on his action on 5th street. He would be in terrible shape with Ax97A, even if not technically drawing dead.

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Would you care to define what range "x" is before making such rash statements? If you limit it to K-J then you're probably right. If it's an unpaired wheel card (the much more logical choice) then seat 1 is still in the lead despite pairing up. If you think that having 42% equity in a 3-way pot is being in "terrible shape" then maybe you need to reevaluate your game.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

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No, OP is the Omaha/8 player overplaying A2. I would assign some rationality to seat 1's play and assume he does not have an ace, based on his action on 5th street. He would be in terrible shape with Ax97A, even if not technically drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you care to define what range "x" is before making such rash statements? If you limit it to K-J then you're probably right. If it's an unpaired wheel card (the much more logical choice) then seat 1 is still in the lead despite pairing up. If you think that having 42% equity in a 3-way pot is being in "terrible shape" then maybe you need to reevaluate your game.

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You are right. The other boards are so bad that seat 1 bets with AA here partly for value and partly to try to take the pot. It is pretty certain he has two wheel cards in the hole and likely low or live ones.

Re: Hmmmmmm (30/60 razz)
 

[/ QUOTE ] You are right. The other boards are so bad that seat 1 bets with AA here partly for value and partly to try to take the pot. It is pretty certain he has two wheel cards in the hole and likely low or live ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
TY. Granted it's pretty rare that AA97x is the best hand on 5th st, but if your opponents hands are lousy enough it's good to realize when you're ahead and press your advantage (esp. when your pair is split!)