Important turn decision
 

This is Villain's first hand at the table. Our only read is he could play like a donkey since he posted out of the blinds.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

Standard so far?
What's your line if he 3-bets?

-Caddy

Re: Important turn decision
 

looks fine.

"What's your line if he 3-bets?"

can't imagine anything but a call down, can you?

Re: Important turn decision
 

looks pretty standard to me, given he posted out of the blinds his range could be anything. I think i call bet c/c if ui, and expect some donk hand like kq off 1/2 the time. but what do I know

Re: Important turn decision
 

I don't know how you could play anything differently up to this point.

I/d call down a 3-bet unless a J comes, don't know what else you could do.

Re: Important turn decision
 

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm still sane.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has Ad Qs (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero has Ac Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: CO wins 10.75 BB. </font>

Without being results oriented here I may have missed a river value bet/fold. Yes?

-Caddy

Re: Important turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
looks fine.

"What's your line if he 3-bets?"

can't imagine anything but a call down, can you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Important turn decision
 

When villain checks that river, it looks like he 3-bet turn with something like pair + flush draw, so I'd consider a b/f.

Re: Important turn decision
 

I woudl check behind on the river. Without reading the results, it looks he has a pretty strong hand on the turn and got scared with the 3rd flush card or something. Tough on an unknown opponent since there's a chance he could just be a complete idiot.

Re: Important turn decision
 

"it looks like he 3-bet turn with something like pair + flush draw, so I'd consider a b/f"

hmmmmm... rethink that maybe?

Re: Important turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
"it looks like he 3-bet turn with something like pair + flush draw, so I'd consider a b/f"

hmmmmm... rethink that maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm too obtuse to get what you're saying. You're saying the river was a diamond so the flush draw came in? I was thinking maybe something like K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], where villain has flush draw, gutshot, plus a pair.

Maybe this is way too thin of a value-bet, but I don't value-bet enough so I'm looking for spots to put in another bet on the river.

Re: Important turn decision
 

I would have called the turn as the ace completes the straight draw and makes two pair hands.

Re: Important turn decision
 

The river is a check independent of player type.
He can be afraid of the flush draw but normal players aren't worried about a 3 flush in 6 max. (Suggesting he is passive)
He can be trying for a sexy. (hit a flush or has a straight)

From your perspective the question boils down to was he ahead when he 3 bet (exposing himself to a cap) on the turn? On that board the answer is most likely -yes.

You raised preflop and showed strength on the turn he has to put you on a minimum of TP.

Lags don't 3 bet and check unless they are going for a sexy.

So in this case given the turn 3 bet, it is always a river check if offered.

The chance of FOS, lower ace, KQ is not high enough here.

Re: Important turn decision
 

I would not raise the turn, just call down bet/call the river

Re: Important turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise the turn, just call down bet/call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

MrEngenic,

What % of the the time do you think we're ahead here on the turn when that A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls and Villain bets out?

-Caddy

Re: Important turn decision
 

One reason why this is a scary kind of raise to make is that villain should know that the Ace could help your hand based on your preflop raise and flop bet/call. I think that if you were ahead in this hand on the turn, villain would check for fear of being raised on what should be a scary card for him.

Re: Important turn decision
 

He's either not afraid of the Ace or bet/folding this street a lot of the time. Both of those possibilities make raising sub-optimal.

Re: Important turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise the turn, just call down bet/call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

MrEngenic,

What % of the the time do you think we're ahead here on the turn when that A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls and Villain bets out?

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know really. Do you mean that you are almost always ahead here and I'm weak for calling? Raising sort of flips your hand up and you may not get more money from him but he would probably check/call the river with hands he would have folded to a turn raise. There is no need to protect against for instance a Q with 5 outs if he would fold to a raise but check/call if you call.
I would like a showdown against an unknown and would not like to call down a 3bet. With outs to improve if I'm behind and a good chance I am ahead I will just call.

I like a free showdown raise with a weak Q or T though. Chance for him to fold to the scarecard + drawy flop + easy fold if 3bet = good spot for it.