kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

Kerpowski (good regular on Stars) always opens to $20 on Stars 5/10. Why does he do this? I haven't had much trouble with it, but it has made for some unique spots. Maybe that's why, since many regs play somewhat formulaically, they don't know wtf to do when something slightly out of the ordinary arises (and often compensate incorrectly). Thoughtz?

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I think this type of stuff is bad to post on the forum. Hands, even against specific opponents are fine but posts where it ends up being the forum as whole ganging up to exploit a single person's game is just a bit unethical IMO.

I doubt you really meant too much by posting it, I just think it's something that isn't what this forum is designed to discuss.

If you want to discuss another reg's tendencies or strategy on AIM with someone else that's fine but I think that this thread should be killed.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I don't think this is out of line at all, as long as you don't target kerp specifically, which to my knowledge he isnt, except for the fact that he is currently the one doing it.

He's just basically asking "thoughts on the whole idea of minraising preflop pretty much all the time?"

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I included his name just to validate the strategy somewhat. I see where you are coming from and on second thought I probably should've made it an anonymous good reg, but now that it's already here we might as well discuss it, I don't think it will hurt him that much if at all.

But whatev, I haven't posted here very long so if I'm wrong on etiquette it's np.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

Post would be fine without the name.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is out of line at all, as long as you don't target kerp specifically, which to my knowledge he isnt, except for the fact that he is currently the one doing it.

He's just basically asking "thoughts on the whole idea of minraising preflop pretty much all the time?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. I can repost in a week or so if people would feel more comfortable with this.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

presumably anybody who adopts such a strategy is looking to take advantage of the fact that he's a superior player when the stacksize to pot ratio on the flop is bigger.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

makes for good 4betting

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
makes for good 4betting

[/ QUOTE ]

As I quickly discovered

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

One might minraise preflop in order to play more pots postflop, assuming feels one plays better postflop than most. If opening to 2bb with 100bb stack, a reasonable 3-bet is probably 6 or 7bb which is much more callable with hands like small pairs than a 3-bet of a 3bb raise to 10-12bb or a 3-bet of a 4bb raise to 12-14bb. The 3-bettor typically has a much more defined handrange than the opener so one consequence of the minraise open is that it may allow the opener to read hands better than his opponent in a re-raised pot. A smaller open also allows one to open more hands, again to play more pots postflop.

Disadvantage is offering better implied and real odds to everyone else to call preflop, which becomes a bigger problem as the opening range becomes tighter.

Another reason to consider opening with a minimum raise is if it may throw other players off.

When performed with a "normal" opening range, the minraise open should not affect hand reading at all.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

ding! we have a winner...

the minraise strat has some advantages over certain lineups and it is at least slightly more difficult to play vs others, especially in EP. I've been doing it across the board for consistency's sake as an expirement. FYI, my winrate doing this is relatively close to my long term winrate at 5/10 and 10/20 combined over approximately 50K hands with the same SD/100.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
makes for good 4betting

[/ QUOTE ]

As I quickly discovered

[/ QUOTE ]

Also allows him to exploit those who are 3b light more (esp when hes opening in CO or BN) bc a rr is going to be much smaller % of his stack. And if they are still rr like they would against a normal open (size-wise) then that will obviously be very exploitable as well.


There are definetly some merits to it.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

i 3bet him a lot, he seems to dislike it.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

a significant advantage of many strategies like this that are uncommon, especially when employed by very good/known players, is that most everybody else is completely clueless about how to respond to it appropriately.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

Isn't the obvious solution to 3bet the same size regardless of open?

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

yeah, if you're who I think you are then you're one of the only people who's adjusted very well. you might play back a bit too much OOP, esp considering that I'll be seeing the flop in position with a wide range. when you're in position you're tough though... thus my frequent seat changing on you.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the obvious solution to 3bet the same size regardless of open?

[/ QUOTE ]no

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the obvious solution to 3bet the same size regardless of open?

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean if he opens to 35 you 3bet to 120, if he opens to 20 you 3-bet to 120?

that sounds pretty bad. you're just laying yourself really bad odds on the pot if you overbet that much.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

One of the interesting things this raise size accomplishes is it can cause preflop to play almost twice as deep as normal.

A min-raise is 40% of the pot. If someone 3bets pot, and he min-raises again, the pot is now less than half of "normal".

10 -> 20 -> 75 -> 150
10 -> 35 -> 120 -> 375

If people are mindlessly pushing with AK for 100 bbs correctly, this can quickly become a losing play against this player.

I don't do this myself because I don't like the idea of always guessing what my image is with new players. I like to make the normal raise and worry about other things.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, if you're who I think you are then you're one of the only people who's adjusted very well. you might play back a bit too much OOP, esp considering that I'll be seeing the flop in position with a wide range. when you're in position you're tough though... thus my frequent seat changing on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

supernova9, pretty sure that its me you are referring to.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

Yeah, I suck at adjusting to things like this without help from the forum. I was spite calling light 3 bettors left and right when that first became common. What should I be doing in this spot?

Villain is a 2p2er that I have played with a little at 1-2 through 3-6. I don't think he would care if his name was outed, but I don't want to do anything out of line.

The small open made me feel terrible about getting 100 bb's in with AK, but calling seemed like it sucked as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($633.90)
Hero ($402.35)
UTG ($31.50)
MP ($777.70)
Button ($445.15)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $28</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $70</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $100

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

&lt;3

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I have played you a decent amount and I think the minraise is very bad. IMO it's a gametechical error and a play that should only be used in very specific spots. Those could be stealraising in a tournament where everyone is playing supertight, or if you have AA/KK and want action on your hand (assume you are not too deep).

In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose. You are not trying to see a cheap flop (limping leaves twice the amount of money behind for implied odds) and you are not trying to steal the blinds (of course you will sometimes, but when you are offereing 3,5-1 to the BB, he will tag along very often). In addition to this you leave yourself wide open to get attacked in all sorts of ways, esp when you raise UTG. It just puts you in so many bad spots. I remember when I played you I would CC your minraises with a ver wide range, and then usually 1-3 more people came along. If you have aces in that spot, you have essentially ruined the value of your hand since you can't do much but fold if you get alot of action.

You can say you make up for it the times you are reraised and can put in a 4bet, but I think that's bad too. It's basically the same as a limp-Reraise and that has been discussed alot and most agree that it's not a good strategy for 6max.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

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In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose.

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To say this without any mathmatical analysis of the strategy seems lazy at best, ignorant at worst. Using terms like "the bb will tag along very often" without quantifying "very often" and relating that to the decreased amount I'm putting into the pot isn't analysis. Same with disregarding other benefits of the strategy (like the increased implied odds of small PP in EP pots) by dropping a general statement that "AA/KK suck in multiway pots with a lot of action".

There are many more advantages/disadvantages and adjustments (both by me and by people trying to counter this) than have been listed in this thread. The fact that my AA may make less in EP does not mean that holistically my EP range makes less.

That being said, as I mentioned above this strategy does not work as well in EP vs certain lineups. That doesn't mean it is technically incorrect, either in LP or in different lineups.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

wow, min-raising pf is retarded.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, dismissing huge lifetime winners' strategies is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have played you a decent amount and I think the minraise is very bad. IMO it's a gametechical error and a play that should only be used in very specific spots. Those could be stealraising in a tournament where everyone is playing supertight, or if you have AA/KK and want action on your hand (assume you are not too deep).

In a 100BBs cashgame the raise just has no purpose. You are not trying to see a cheap flop (limping leaves twice the amount of money behind for implied odds) and you are not trying to steal the blinds (of course you will sometimes, but when you are offereing 3,5-1 to the BB, he will tag along very often). In addition to this you leave yourself wide open to get attacked in all sorts of ways, esp when you raise UTG. It just puts you in so many bad spots. I remember when I played you I would CC your minraises with a ver wide range, and then usually 1-3 more people came along. If you have aces in that spot, you have essentially ruined the value of your hand since you can't do much but fold if you get alot of action.

You can say you make up for it the times you are reraised and can put in a 4bet, but I think that's bad too. It's basically the same as a limp-Reraise and that has been discussed alot and most agree that it's not a good strategy for 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the limp reraise is a bad analogy. Part of what makes limp-reraising so horrible is that nobody open limps at 6 max. If kerpowski was working open-limping into his game for some reason, I think a limp reraise would in fact be something to consider now and then, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Also, what is so bad about "the bb coming along a lot"? You have position, the lead, a small pot, and probably a better hand. Seems fine to me.

I was thinking the other day about how Negreanu minraises or raises to 2.5x all the time in tournaments, and he has had remarkable success lately. Perhaps the only reason we don't see him doing that on High Stakes Poker is because the stacks are much bigger than in a tournament.

Couple questions for kerpowski (if you feel inclined to answer them): if stacks are all 150bbs at the table do you still minraise open? 200bbs? And do you minraise from the sb if it gets folded to you (I'm sure this has come up between us but I forgot)?

Thanks a lot, by the way, for both introducing something unique to msnl and being willing to talk about it. I'm CrAbLaR btw.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

thread is tl;dr but i want to say that i started opening to 25 in the msnl hu tournament while mz opponents were 3betting to the wrong amounts and opening to 30to 40, and i feel like it has been a monster advantge for me, and i häve discussed the merits of it with a few, but i think iäd rather open to 22 or 28 or something like picky tooth or 25 or just 30 like i do (primarily because iäm lazy) than the minraise

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I think it is odd that anyone can dismiss an unorthodox approach if done with thought, intention and with reason. Isn't the whole challenge of playing optimal poker is by definition getting your opponents to make incorrect plays?

I think there are merits to any game approach that is done with the intention and analysis of inducing your opponents to make incorrect moves. This discussion is much better served as how to approach the next step in the open minraise concept than the minraise itself.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

players like this who are experimentng with their game and getting out of their comfort zone are generally the ones who will improve and get better.

If you play a looser pf style and want more room to make manuevers, raising less definetly has its merits.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

kerp gets 2+2 aggro idiots to do really dumb stuff by incorrectly adjusting to his minraises

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I agree that the limp-reraise was a bad analogy. I dont think it was entirely useless though, but I am having troubles putting alot of different thoughts into text right now.

Btw, how does the minraising fans feel about a min3bet back? Do you like that? I did that a few times when I played kerpowski just for fun, but I think the two plays are equally silly.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

kerp,

I like this a lot in LP.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the limp-reraise was a bad analogy. I dont think it was entirely useless though, but I am having troubles putting alot of different thoughts into text right now.

Btw, how does the minraising fans feel about a min3bet back? Do you like that? I did that a few times when I played kerpowski just for fun, but I think the two plays are equally silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like the above discussion, it depends on what you intend to accomplish with it and what your plan is post it. In a box, hard to comment.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

If theres a limper are you switching to a ~pot raise or still keeping it small (maybe 2x+1bb/limper)?

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I gave opeining for 25 a try for all reasons stated in this threasd. Its a fine way to play. I was successful with it, however, it puts you in so many crappy spots post flop. I quit it because this style took about 200% as much effort to play for the same winrate.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
It just puts you in so many bad spots. I remember when I played you I would CC your minraises with a ver wide range, and then usually 1-3 more people came along. If you have aces in that spot, you have essentially ruined the value of your hand since you can't do much but fold if you get alot of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically all he has to do is mix up his minraising range with a 4xBB raising range and he's much harder to play against?

I don't like specifically outing player's strategies, but it's valid to the discussion, so whatever. Player Kelisitaan on Stars has a VERY effective strategy which involves playing many pots for small amounts preflop. He'll minraise and limp tons of hands (I think he's like 32/20 at full ring) and play postflop very well. It's been very succesful for him because so many people either overadjust or don't adjust at all. He's capable of minraising and limping AA/KK preflop (I think that's just too tricky as he has a LAG image, so why not pump up the big hands like you do the crappy ones?) and he's very annoying to play against.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

[ QUOTE ]
I gave opening for the min a try for all reasons stated in this threasd. Its a fine way to play. I was successful with it and it puts you in so many awesome spots post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

KoD,

I don't really want to go into detail about adjustments beyond what I've already done (e.g. hand range adjustments, postflop adjustments, and adjustments vs deeper stacks) as I think that would give too much away on how I play both with this strategy and in general.

Re: kerpowski\'s minraise open
 

I love it when in LP; not so much in EP.