Gracz rips police after bust
 

Gracz wonders why the police aren't out chasing sexual predators.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

And now 'Horrible Arguments' with Michael Gracz

1) In a legal system where police enforce the law, but do nothing to do with making the law, if you don't agree with a law, you should attack the police.

2) If two things are illegal, enforcing the lesser crime of the two = stupid.

3) If something is legal, within "hours" of a given jurisdiction, making it illegal in that jurisdiction = stupid. Basically, passing a law against anything but piracy in any coastal region is dumb ('But I could just get a boat and go toward international waters! Stupid cops').

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Yeah, horrible...the next night the NC State police busted a retirees nickel stakes bridge game and some 8 year olds playing jacks for marbles!

The pigs should be ashamed of themselves. Pick on some real criminals.

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And now 'Horrible Arguments' with Michael Gracz

1) In a legal system where police enforce the law, but do nothing to do with making the law, if you don't agree with a law, you should attack the police.

2) If two things are illegal, enforcing the lesser crime of the two = stupid.

3) If something is legal, within "hours" of a given jurisdiction, making it illegal in that jurisdiction = stupid. Basically, passing a law against anything but piracy in any coastal region is dumb ('But I could just get a boat and go toward international waters! Stupid cops').

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Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

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Most interesting part of the article was this justification for ruling poker a game of chance.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

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Most interesting part of the article was this justification for ruling poker a game of chance.

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Yeah it's great that the government considers it a game of chance, but at the same time taxes it as earned income. Doesn't the term 'earned' have an implication of skill?

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

no, thats why lotteries are taxed. durr?

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

His argument is pathetic.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos...11175509990001
i am 110% sure this guy sold me my bible...he seemed like such a nice young boy.i find it very hard to believe he is mixed up in the evil pokers.WWJD?not take part in a game of chance. amen.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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"The point is it is illegal," he said. "The analogy is if you catch someone smoking marijuana they say why aren't you trying to get a coke or heroin dealer. The law is the law and it's not up to ALE to systematically chose the laws we enforce."

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I agree it's dumb...but you can't blame the cops. Blame the people who put the laws on the books.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah it's great that the government considers it a game of chance, but at the same time taxes it as earned income. Doesn't the term 'earned' have an implication of skill?

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Income tax is not limited to 'earned' income.
Income 'from whatever source derived' is subject to the tax, yes, even income resulting from a crime.
Al Capone went to Alcatraz for tax evasion.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

change the laws

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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I agree it's dumb...but you can't blame the cops. Blame the people who put the laws on the books.

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they don't enforce immigration laws.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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change the laws

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In Texas, we've been trying to do it for 10 years to license card clubs since there seems too much opposition to casino gambling, although there is less than before. Until the pro gaming lobby > religious/morals/anti gaming lobby, this will never happen anywhere. It also doesn't help that poker in the "view of the masses" think poker is pure chance.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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And now 'Horrible Arguments' with the North Carolina judicial system:

"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."




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FYP and LMAO @ these simplistic mofos making decisions about our lives.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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His argument is pathetic.

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Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

this just seems like sour grapes to me, bad argument to be making

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

It also is perhaps not the wisest move to criticize the cops so as to make yourself more of interest to them when your chosen profession is illegal. Who knows, they might decide to see if he is using that internet thing to gamble and play his home a visit.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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It also is perhaps not the wisest move to criticize the cops so as to make yourself more of interest to them when your chosen profession is illegal. Who knows, they might decide to see if he is using that internet thing to gamble and play his home a visit.

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Yeah we should never try to fix bad things because there might be consequences.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...lrights203.jpg

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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Gracz wonders why the police aren't out chasing sexual predators.

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Hes right. I know we are all supposed to act like cops and law enforcement are heros and that they do no wrong these days but its a waste of time, money, and man power to spend everyones time with stuff like this. More of a government problem but i say [censored] the cops for going after stuff like this.

I guess once everything in the world is fixed and all the gangbangers are in jail and all the wanted criminals are caught then maybe we should start caring about naughty MEN playing with their own money.

Well i got to go buy lottery tickets and blow my money at the track now while smoking cigarettes and downing beer after beer. As long as the government gets theirs its "ok" and "moral".

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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His argument is pathetic.

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Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," the appeals opinion said. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

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Most interesting part of the article was this justification for ruling poker a game of chance.

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agreed

how some judge could rule it "chance based" blows my mind...that guy should get fired asap

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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change the laws

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In Texas, we've been trying to do it for 10 years to license card clubs since there seems too much opposition to casino gambling, although there is less than before. Until the pro gaming lobby > religious/morals/anti gaming lobby, this will never happen anywhere. It also doesn't help that poker in the "view of the masses" think poker is pure chance.

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I would say that the lobbying done by our neighbors is probably a bigger issue than those... Lake Charles, Shreveport, and Oklahoma would stand to lose A LOT of money if TX got its own legal cardrooms... Winstar is all Dallas people, Lake Chuck is Screwston central... etc...

plenty of cardrooms in each city if you dont mind getting butt rammed by a ridiculous rake for low limits...

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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More of a government problem but i say [censored] the cops for going after stuff like this.


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Do you really think that the cops carrying out these "busts" have any say whatsoever on whether or not they do them? As if a cop can just decide whether or not he is personally going to go break up a poker game or take part in a raid.

The reality is that cops are pawns, they do as they're told, much like a soldier in Iraq does. All they can do is try to be decent and professional as they go about their business in a case like that. Some are, some arent, but either way they are doing what they are told to do regardless of how they feel about it.

If you want you could blame the commanding officer who authorized the raid but ultimately you will likely find out that he only ordered it as a result of political pressure which came about as a result of complaints from regular citizens like me and you. Your hometown/city/state probably has many more vocal opponents of illegal gambling/poker than outspoken supporters. Sad but true.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

correct me if i'm wrong (i'm canadian and dont pay taxes on gambling winnings) but the same people who say all this is illegal etc, will tax you when you win....right?

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Are you suggesting that criminals are not required to pay taxes? See Al Capone.

Also, none of this applies to poker players since it is not illegal to PLAY poker, only to run the games and profit from them by charging rake/time. You will usually find that the palyers are rarely if ever arrested during these raids, and if they are it is some BS charge. Its the managers and staff that typically get penalized.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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I agree it's dumb...but you can't blame the cops. Blame the people who put the laws on the books.

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they don't enforce immigration laws.

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Totally agree. They should inforce them though. However, our politicians, both Reps and Dems are so worried about getting the mystical "Hispanic vote" that they won't allow the laws to be enforced. The proper funding, legal support and backing is not provided to the departments when they actually do their job of enforcing the immigration laws. That is one huge mess and I'm sure you know it as well as I do.

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change the laws

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In Texas, we've been trying to do it for 10 years to license card clubs since there seems too much opposition to casino gambling, although there is less than before. Until the pro gaming lobby > religious/morals/anti gaming lobby, this will never happen anywhere. It also doesn't help that poker in the "view of the masses" think poker is pure chance.

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I would say that the lobbying done by our neighbors is probably a bigger issue than those... Lake Charles, Shreveport, and Oklahoma would stand to lose A LOT of money if TX got its own legal cardrooms... Winstar is all Dallas people, Lake Chuck is Screwston central... etc...

plenty of cardrooms in each city if you dont mind getting butt rammed by a ridiculous rake for low limits...

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You hit the nail on the head. I'm from Texas too and blaming the conservative/religious right on us not having poker is a joke. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I fully 100% believe that someone in Texas is getting paid under the table so that we don't get casino gambling and/or poker rooms. Louisiana and Oklahoma are not exactly liberal places...if they can have casino gambling, so could Texas. Blaming it on the conservatives is a joke. Sure some of the Right likes to jump up and down and scream and shout when gambling is mentioned but those Oklahoma and Louisiana casinos are filled with conservative Republicans.lol

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Running an illegal casino is a crime if the state says it's a crime... simple concept. What's the argument?

If you want to play poker, play poker - don't charge some stupid rake and don't have f'ckin Roulette and Blackjack tables within 100 miles of the joint.

These guys got busted for being stupid rednecks operating an illegal casino!

Other "innocent" things you shouldn't do that will get you arrested.

1. Have sex with a consenting 17 year old.
2. Make and sell your own booze.
3. Charge a "cover" to a kegger party.
4. Buy and sell untaxed cigarettes.
5. Operate a daycare facility without a license.
6. Sell food made in your own kitchen.
7. Cut hair (and charge a fee) in your own kitchen!!!
8. Etc. Etc. need I go on.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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It also is perhaps not the wisest move to criticize the cops so as to make yourself more of interest to them when your chosen profession is illegal. Who knows, they might decide to see if he is using that internet thing to gamble and play his home a visit.

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Yeah we should never try to fix bad things because there might be consequences.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...lrights203.jpg

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I wouldn't exactly say these 2 things are in the same boat, would you?

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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correct me if i'm wrong (i'm canadian and dont pay taxes on gambling winnings) but the same people who say all this is illegal etc, will tax you when you win....right?

[/ QUOTE ]you are correct

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Horrible analogy. If he wants to agitate for a change in the law, as the Civil Rights protesters did, that is fine, but to criticize the cops because they enforce an existing law is not even close to the same thing. MLK didn't ask that the cops not enforce Jim Crow laws, he asked that those laws be changed. Further, comparing laws which make an activity illegal to laws which deny equal rights based on skin pigmentation costs the argument any credibility which it might have.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Write your congressmen. They are the movers and shakers. If you don't even have card rooms in your state, write your state senator, organize a movement or something. Personally, I am against all victimless crimes and think the Govt. is here to protect its citizens, not make moral judgements. IF I wanna go put $20 on the Cubs to win the world series, solicit a hooker, and get high, all on a Sunday night, who am I hurting? Who is the man protecting in that situation? How many people are in jail for years on a mandatory drug charge in which no one was harmed while rapists and molesters are released on good behavior to alleve overcrowding in the jails?

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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It also is perhaps not the wisest move to criticize the cops so as to make yourself more of interest to them when your chosen profession is illegal. Who knows, they might decide to see if he is using that internet thing to gamble and play his home a visit.

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Yeah we should never try to fix bad things because there might be consequences.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...lrights203.jpg

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dumb

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Since virtually every police department in the country complains about limited resources, there is nothing illegitimate about complaining about those limited resources being used against poker as opposed to being directed elsewhere.

I agree, however, that it is wrong to direct these complaints at the individual officers involved, but it is perfectly fine to direct the complaints at the official who decided resources should be used this way.

As to the comparison to the civil rights movement: poker is indeed much farther down the scale of importance than discrimination based on race, but the general principle being invoked was the same: to blindly accept laws that are unjust (or just plain stupid) simply because they are "the law" is to be sheep, not human.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

Maybe a bit of a derail, but this doesn't deserve it's own thread as it has nothing to do with poker, just stupid cops. This is the 2nd thing I have read today involving cops that has pissed me off.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070910/odd_s...rger.html?.v=1

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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Horrible analogy. If he wants to agitate for a change in the law, as the Civil Rights protesters did, that is fine, but to criticize the cops because they enforce an existing law is not even close to the same thing. MLK didn't ask that the cops not enforce Jim Crow laws, he asked that those laws be changed. Further, comparing laws which make an activity illegal to laws which deny equal rights based on skin pigmentation costs the argument any credibility which it might have.

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I'm sure I'm in the minority opinion, but I believe that every citizen in the chain should resist enforcing truly bad laws. That means prosecutors should not seek prosecutions in some cases even where guilt is clear, that police should not follow orders to enforce absurd or primarily harassing laws, etc.

Given the impossibly huge number of bad laws on the books, most of them AREN'T going to be changed anytime soon or even in our lifetimes.

Input your home state to view many of the cockamamie laws on the books. These are laws that ANYONE should know shouldn't be enforced. Go ahead, take a moment and do it:

http://www.dumblaws.com

Here are a few from New York:

-A fine of $25 can be levied for flirting.

-It is illegal for a woman to be on the street wearing "body hugging" clothing.

Nevada:

-Sec. 8.14.040. Sale of sexual paraphernalia.

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer to sell or display for sale any device, including but not limited to dildos and artificial vaginae, designed or marketed as useful primarily for the stimulation of human genital organs.

Florida:

-798.02 Lewd and lascivious behavior.

If any man and woman, not being married to each other, lewdly and lasciviously associate and cohabit together, or if any man or woman, married or unmarried, engages in open and gross lewdness and lascivious behavior, they shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

-You may not kiss your wife's breasts.

-Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.

Arizona:

-When being attacked by a criminal or burglar, you may only protect yourself with the same weapon that the other person posseses.

-There is a possible 25 years in prison for cutting down a cactus. (comment: 25 years!??? Come on.)

Amazed yet? Why aren't THOSE laws changed yet? Well, don't expect many bad laws to be changed; there are just too many of them on the books. The examples given are just the tiniest tip of the iceberg. Political inertia, and backlog too, will prevent most bad laws from being changed or removed.

This raises the question: how are police and prosecutors they supposed to know it's a bad law? Common sense and their consciences should tell them, in most cases.

Poker being illegal is a bad law. Many cops, judges and even some past or present U.S. Supreme Court judges play poker. I used to play poker with a judge, a couple of decades ago.

If prosecutors and police would refuse to implement stupid and immoral laws, many of which merely harass the populace, the country would be far, far better off, in my opinion.

The moral judgment of the ordinary citizen > the law in most cases. This is the key point and the key hurdle that many will have a hard time accepting, but if you think about it, you will see that it is usually true.

I think the best thing that could happen would be that citizens, including citizens who happen to be police and prosecutors, would simply stop supporting or participating in the enforcement of what they believe to be bad laws. In most cases, they'd be right. Of course, I'm not advocating ignoring heinous crimes like rape or murder.

It could be a grass-roots movement to say: the hell with the BS that goes on. It would be a move toward common sense and empowerment of the citizenry and people, instead of the political elites calling the shots and the police and prosecutors playing the role of uncritical cogs in an unjust wheel. It would greatly reduce the harassment of ordinary good citizens over fairly minor matters.

Come on good people, please use your common sense and the good judgment that God gave you, and stop doing the Devil's work by supporting bad and unjust laws.

Thank you all for reading.

edit: this entire post regards the body of criminal law, not other types of law. There are an immense number of absurd and harassing criminal laws on the books and that is the focus of this post, along with what I think would be a good thing for people to do about it.

Thanks again for reading.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

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Poker being illegal is a bad law. Many cops, judges and even some past or present U.S. Supreme Court judges play poker.

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Poker/Drugs/Prostitution being illegal is a bad law. Many cops, judges and even some past or present U.S. Supreme Court judges play poker/do lines of coke/bang hookers.

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But on the bright side, I think poker has a better chance of making if that the other 2.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/cri...ry/703611.html

Another article with some interesting info on the diversity of those charged during the raid including law enforcement, lawyers, and a licensed private investigator.

Re: Gracz rips police after bust
 

He's right on all counts.