Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I wanna see how HSNL and MSNL differ on this and I think this forum has a lot of really good advice, so here we go:
I'm running at 24/17. I got my stack by getting it in w/oesfd vs set and winning and snapping off a big bluff w/AK on ace-high board and haven't been out of line. Hero (UTG): $7,575 MP: $2,257 CO: $2,057 BTN: $2,072 SB: $1,652.46 BB: $4,140 Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG) <font color="red">Hero raises to $70</font>, MP calls $70, CO folds, BTN calls $70, <font color="red">SB raises to $180</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $110, MP calls $110, BTN calls $110 SB is 30/7 over 63 hands. So the first question is: what should I do here? One very good poster claims fold cuz he always has KK/AA. Another says reraise call it off. I opted to call. The two people behind me who called are both 16/11ish players so I'm treading lightly in this hand. Flop: ($740) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players) <font color="red">SB bets $220</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $440</font>, MP folds, BTN calls $440, SB folds The plan was to fold to a cold push by either of the 16/11s and to get it in vs the preflop reraiser. Now the button coldcalls with the reraiser still to act and I start freaking out. What do you guys think of this line? I think the flop is the toughest spot by far in this hand. Turn: ($1,840) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, BTN checks Well, he doesn't have 22. I think I'm still crushed. I check w/intention of folding. He checks back. Slowplay or am I good here? River: ($1,840) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero ...is lost Check/fold? Shove? Bet 500? Check/call? What do you guys do here? Comments on all streets appreciated. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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So the first question is: what should I do here? One very good poster claims fold cuz he always has KK/AA [/ QUOTE ] can't you profitably call for set value then? i call probably. [ QUOTE ] I think the flop is the toughest spot by far in this hand. [/ QUOTE ] good argument for raise/calling pf because you really have to expect this situation a lot (the other guys are obv calling pre when you do). turn plan of c/f looks good. river probably the same, he might be more likely to check behind his boats once the board pairs with just a psb left. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Flatcall of the minraise by any decent player (no matter what his stats) is very strong and typically a set--at least at the levels I play: 2-4 thru 3-6. At my levels I'd check fold the river without any second thoughts.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
i really really like the flop play, as I think it defines his hand, while being cheap and giving you the chance to take down the hand.
i can't see you possibly being ahead now, so i check/fold river best case scenario he has 98 and u take it |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Preflop, i'd just call as well - really looks like SB has a huge hand (since he folded the flop, probably AK), but we have set odds and you'd hate to be shoved on if you 4bet this preflop.
Flop, i'd make it a big bigger, if the button folds, SB might call you with 2 overs and you have to bet blank turn (otherwise he has 25% equity in a big pot for just 220$ more) and getting c/r here would certainly be awful.So, make it about 600 and shut down if called. Once button cold calls - i am checking the turn too.Check-folding probably. River - Have no idea what he could cold call with on the flop and check behind turn.Set makes sense though, since it just became a boat or quads and after you check, probably doesn't put you on a big hand (he still has a psb left for the river or hoping you'd bet river and he can reraise). How aggro is he? Some players are just never raising without huge hands, so i'd might make it like 600 and fold to a shove. But in any case, i'd most likely check and fold to a big bet, might call a small one. The only draw on the flop is JT, and he just got a top pair which he almost certainly won't turn into a bluff. And the only hand you crushed on the flop and makes sense is TT and that now beats you too. FWIW, my usual game is Nl1000. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Preflop I think is a clear call. Raise/calling seems terrible against a 7% pfr whose raise sizing screams huge pair, as does folding as I think we have odds to play for set value alone because we can usually anticipate the two other players to come along behind us.
Flop is hard. Obviously we're not going to straight up fold, but I think a normal sized raise ($900 or something) is bad because it commits us to get it in even though we're usually crushed if all the money goes in. I think calling and raising small are both acceptable. Once the 16/11 cold calls the flop I'm pretty scared. I don't think his check back on the turn discounts a set at all since he just boated up and will therefore slowplay a lot more than he would on like a 3 or something. I think river's a pretty clear c/f, with his range being primarily 88/99. He could also have TJ or something which he will probably check back on the river, and we might have been able to squeeze some value out of by betting, but that's pretty thin and a 16/11 probably isn't even calling JTo pre in this spot. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
pre is fine, post-flop is pretty awesome, although with people behind you, it may be just fine to call (and that's enough to slow down a 30/7 - they don't bluff).
TAG may have JT given the action, and he could have 67 too - however with reraiser left to act, these are ambitious calls. he could have 89 and is too busy locating his bottle of strychnine to try to bluff you off an overpair. i'm curious if you think he is capable of bluff shoving this spot - i doubt it. so i go ahead and bet 1/3rd pot for value and fold to a raise. edit - he's got to be scared of you being full too. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I don't believe 89 is ever flat calling after that action.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
just call flop. given how protected this pot is i dont expect anybody to be bluffing with any frequency and 16/11s dont even have many combinations of oesds (which are the only draw).
as played i would c/f. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Folding pre is too weak even if we are only playing for set value (which we arent) b/c of the dead money in the pot. Pushing only gets called by better so calling in position seems like the only play.
Flop is ok, although I would probably just call because as Triumph said, 30/7's don't throw multi-street bluffs and there are two ppl left to act. On the turn, you have to be scared as hell of villains range, also, if he's any good, he's not calling with 98. C/f seems best The river is a really strange spot and at this point I'm confused as to what the hell he could possibly have. Is your read on villain that he is a good nit or bad nit? if he's bad enough to call with 98, then a small b/f doesn't seem too bad, as its unlikely he's going to bluff this hand and may call with worse. Most likely though, I feel like we have to be toast and I c/f unless he throws some stupid bet out there giving us 6 or 7 to 1 so I can spite call him. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
The very good poster meant he'd fold the flop not preflop.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
yeah i can see folding the flop. i think i'd probably call though. i'm c/f on the river as played.
definitely calling preflop. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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The very good poster meant he'd fold the flop not preflop. [/ QUOTE ] thought you were crazy at the time, didn't want to go into it. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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Folding pre is too weak even if we are only playing for set value (which we arent) b/c of the dead money in the pot. Pushing only gets called by better so calling in position seems like the only play. Flop is ok, although I would probably just call because as Triumph said, 30/7's don't throw multi-street bluffs and there are two ppl left to act. On the turn, you have to be scared as hell of villains range, also, if he's any good, he's not calling with 98. C/f seems best The river is a really strange spot and at this point I'm confused as to what the hell he could possibly have. Is your read on villain that he is a good nit or bad nit? if he's bad enough to call with 98, then a small b/f doesn't seem too bad, as its unlikely he's going to bluff this hand and may call with worse. Most likely though, I feel like we have to be toast and I c/f unless he throws some stupid bet out there giving us 6 or 7 to 1 so I can spite call him. [/ QUOTE ] I really didn't have any read on the button. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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just call flop. given how protected this pot is i dont expect anybody to be bluffing with any frequency and 16/11s dont even have many combinations of oesds (which are the only draw). as played i would c/f. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I c/f his overcall is ultra strong here im not sure if he turns 98s into a bluff but I doubt it, only hand we really beat at this point
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Yep, flop is toughest spot IMO. Seems like just calling or even c/f are the two best options. Leaning towards calling.
river seems like a c/f. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
i think raising the flop is pretty terrible, i would call and re eval/ fold to any further action.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
either raise the flop to 700 or just call.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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i think raising the flop is pretty terrible, i would call and re eval/ fold to any further action. [/ QUOTE ] SB bet 220 into 700 and we minraised, how is that terrible |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
2222 makes some sense here. He knows that he's shown considerable strength cold calling on the flop, knows that you may well fold to a turn bet, and could be checking to disguise and give you the chance to fill up (slim tho' it is). |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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[ QUOTE ] i think raising the flop is pretty terrible, i would call and re eval/ fold to any further action. [/ QUOTE ] SB bet 220 into 700 and we minraised, how is that terrible [/ QUOTE ] gabe you're always saying things like this to me, i understand about being open to plays, but this one turns me off. there are so few hands that it is even viable with that it makes our hand transparent or something. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i think raising the flop is pretty terrible, i would call and re eval/ fold to any further action. [/ QUOTE ] SB bet 220 into 700 and we minraised, how is that terrible [/ QUOTE ] gabe you're always saying things like this to me, i understand about being open to plays, but this one turns me off. there are so few hands that it is even viable with that it makes our hand transparent or something. [/ QUOTE ] right our range with this minraise is any two, that really narrows it down imo |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i think raising the flop is pretty terrible, i would call and re eval/ fold to any further action. [/ QUOTE ] SB bet 220 into 700 and we minraised, how is that terrible [/ QUOTE ] gabe you're always saying things like this to me, i understand about being open to plays, but this one turns me off. there are so few hands that it is even viable with that it makes our hand transparent or something. [/ QUOTE ] right our range with this minraise is any two, that really narrows it down imo [/ QUOTE ] agree |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Everyone else has offered plenty of analysis already, so i'll just say my line -
Call pf, don't think it's close Probably call flop but tempted to fold c/f turn c/f river |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I really don't like flop. Not because it defines our hand or anything, but because you plan to call a push from SB. Nonononono. A 30/7 reraises preflop, then small bet-3bet the flop all in and you expect to see anything but KK+? Just call. Not that worried about draws and no one is likely to bluff behind you given SB is likely to call.
Once action goes the way it does, I'm c/f turn and river. Dude may feel free to own me by turning 98 into a bluff. I think he is full/quads much more often. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
agree w/ flop callers. now c/f river.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I think raising the flop is pretty terrible. You said you raised with the intention of getting in vs the preflop reraiser ... uh why? He has you crushed every time that he decides to continue in the hand.
PF: Call Flop: Call and look for showdown River: C/F |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
flop is a really tough spot. I actually think u played it OK.
All I think you're ahead of on the river is 89. I'd check fold. If he decides to make a ballsy bluff with 89 then 'grats to him. Only I get more money in here is if I'm very sure button would have 3 bet 88-TT preflop. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
Prahlad,
Preflop is clear call as KingGordy and others said. Flop I like calling best. I hate raising to call a push from SB as said by Melchiades. I don't mind minraising that much to charge the 6-outer from SB and other stuff from everybody else; but I don't know how villains at this level will interpret it and it makes the whole hand murky afterwards. Turn is a clear c/f. River is a c/f though bet-folding small isn't bad if you think he won't bluff-raise you. You basically hope to get value from 98/JT but that is very thin. TT just rivered a FH as well. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
i like the raise on the flop because if mp or button stay in the hand im done with it (c/f, c/f). i am trying to but im really having a hard time coming up with a hand that villain can have that would get past the flop with and make sense as a bluff on the river (i mean he probably has your range as c/cing the river)
im a 2/4 player though so take it with a grain of salt edit: also i like the raise because either 2 behind you could call with a huge part of their range for just $220 or even shove over |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
bump, fiend this is when youre supposed to say i was dead on and offer to stake me for 5/10
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
preflop is a clear raise imo. They really dont always have AA KK. I mean some do and you find that out, but other times they have KJS ffs. With so many people who will overcall behind you repoping a huge mistake with a vulnerable hand like JJ.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
bet 600 on river. hell call with JT and shove full houses
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I like pf call, flop raise is OK I guess, flop call wouldn't be bad, so you can fold to a raise from btn.
Turn check is standard given flop play. Given flop play, btn stats and no read I think river is a ch/f. He's not vbetting a worse hand and I don't see any hand that beats you that would fold. Unless you think he could get there this way with AA KK and would fold it to a river shove.... |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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bet 600 on river. hell call with JT and shove full houses [/ QUOTE ] if he can have JT he can have 56 |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
flat call preflop, probably just call the flop aainst the re raiser is just really retarded. plannin to c/f the turn is good and i like ahnuds idea of a blocking bet on the river
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
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[ QUOTE ] bet 600 on river. hell call with JT and shove full houses [/ QUOTE ] if he can have JT he can have 56 [/ QUOTE ] you mean 67, but yeah. and obviously there are more combos of 67 than TJ. |
Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
I like the preflop call, I probably call the flop though. As played, once I get coldcalled on the flop, I'm cfing the rest of the way.
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Re: Very Weird Hand X-Post from HSNL: Showing Love for MSNL
fold flop so fast
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