Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Hey all, since the coaching thread in SSNL was locked, I'm cross-posting the idea here with the intention of responding to questions. (That got locked)

The post...

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hey guys. On my flight to CA yesterday I did some thinking. (and reading, read "Blink, the power to think without thinking", which I highly recommend) and I had an idea for coaching. Figured I'd ask it here, since, well, I'll let you guys decide.

I was thinking about introducing a new program for my coaching. Currently I coach online using either skype or aim (sometimes both) and caution the client against doing more then ~2 a week, since it's important to absorb (and put theory into practice) the lecture material.

Would there be any interest in say a "3-day workshop," where you fly to Boston, stay with me (i'm trying to write this in the least gay way possible) for 3days/2nights, where I squeeze my entire program (14hrs of coaching), plus offer a few more things? (I have a ton of ideas of how certain non poker related games and strategies help poker... ie. Minesweeper, Chess, and certain books) Figured that would enable me to live sweat as well, answer all Qs THERE, and in general just be "the best possible coach". I figured I'd include a few things, like a copy of my book etc. so that the client would have that upon leaving (to refer to just in case)

Thoughts?


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SpecT wrote:
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wow that actually sounds really cool. cost?


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I was thinking about charging 3k.

Maulik wrote:
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The idea could certainly work. My initial impression is, while its a good idea, it's best for either a strong player who is beating some upper-crust of mid-stakes games or someone who will receive a crash course. At the same time, one who is beginning the game would be able to treat this as a crash course in poker. Those players who have been struggling for a while, need more time to soak up theory.


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I am not sure, I think there would be immense value for everyone (!)

willw wrote:
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Does bobbo's current method of teaching require like 10+ lessons

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I think all (hopefully!) who have done fewer then 10 lessons from me have gained value. Some people only want 1 or 2 lessons, as a leak-finder type deal. I think those lessons aren't as good, since (and this is my recurring philosophy) leaks aren't quickly fixed, but rather it's more important to understand the 'why' before the 'leak' itself is plugged. (Ex. people sometimes say calling with a certain type of hand OOP is exploitable and leaky. So they stop doing it. BUT, this is nowhere close to as important as the "Why," which could be a positional acuteness or the typical type of hand/situation you will be in postflop, without impetus. Also, those that fallback on these guidelines typically miss certain situations where calling with that certain type of hand is the most pos EV)

GSykes wrote:
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BobboFitos, I would love to partake in something like this.


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Sweet, you could be my ginea (sp?) pig! PM me, my box should be clear.

Abeatdown wrote:
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What is a sweat session?

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I think this was directed at me, but in any event - since the student will be there (I have solid internet) obviously the intent will be to LEARN (roughly ~7 hours on day 1 and ~7 on day 2, or something similar) clearly there is room for playing. (Implementation) I don't find online sweating useful, but in the process of playing we could stop, talk, and discuss THEORY and put it into PRACTICE.

Eric Draven wrote:
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I'm too poor to do this anytime soon, but I think it's a great idea. I'm sure you'd get enough to make it worth it for both yourself and students if you were to offer it. Heck, I'd probably be all over it if I wasn't a poor college student that barely has a bankroll for micros


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=)

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

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2) The forum is not intended for private coaching. As to whether the forum is open to private coaches posting, if the posts are in response to specific questions that is not a problem. However, the forum is not intended to be used to promote specific private coaches and we would appreciate coaches respecting that forum posting guideline.

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Err, just read this. If that's the case, please unlock the SSNL post so we can resume the discussion there. Otherwise, I'd like this topic to remain here.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

I don't have a problem with this thread unless it causes competition/spamming amongst individual coaches.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

BF,
Clear your PMs.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

I think that this is a very good idea and would be interested

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

This sounds like what Tommy Angelo does, and everything I've heard about his coaching sounds very good.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

I like the idea as well. Being coached over aim or something doesn't thrill me a whole lot. If I could learn all there is to learn by reading text on my computer screen, well, it would have happened already.

Live coaching is the only way I'd go and would recommend all coaches try to figure out a way to do that.

The only downside (which could be a big one) is that you're cramming all this stuff into your client's head in 3 days. He doesn't have time between lessons for it to 'sink in'. Having never been coached, I don't know if that's an issue or not.

Onaflag........

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Live coaching by the day is regularly offered by backgammon coaches, e.g., Bill Robertie used to advertise rates of $1000/day.

It's hard for a lot of material to sink in over a short period of time. It's good to have a lot of handouts and material the student can take away to review later, to reinforce the coaching, and a variety of activities to do within the 3 days.

Frequently, the coach goes to the players instead of having the players come to the coach. A disadvantage is that you have to add the travel/accomodation costs in explicitly, and it is easier for the student to focus on one subject when away from home. An advantage is that a group of friends can hire a coach, and each can get as much out of it as he likes.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

BF,

Please check pm/email.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

How does this program compare to your regular 14 hour program in terms of cost? What is the hourly for the 14 individual sessions vs. the 3 day cram session?

Thanks

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Like any other live training sessions, it has its benefits and downsides. It can give a very good personal touch, since the student can interact directly. However, for poker, I think it's tough to do, as one has to play to understand some of the concepts. I always found it easy to play, and then ask a question about my play rather than ask in vacuum.

I don't think I will have the energy to fly to your place. It would be nice, if this session can be offered over Internet using some video streaming equipment. Not too hard to setup, actually. That way you can attract more people and will be cheaper for the students as well.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Finally getting around to posting, been busy for the past few days, so:

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I don't have a problem with this thread unless it causes competition/spamming amongst individual coaches.

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TY stox.

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Clear your PMs.


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Cleared

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I think that this is a very good idea and would be interested

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Good, what other sort of info should I provide? What would change you from being interested to signing up? (Etc.)

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This sounds like what Tommy Angelo does, and everything I've heard about his coaching sounds very good.

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Yeah, everything I've heard about his program is golden. I think it would be slightly different in that I wouldn't play live with the student, but that is always an option. (just less time efficient)

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The only downside (which could be a big one) is that you're cramming all this stuff into your client's head in 3 days. He doesn't have time between lessons for it to 'sink in'. Having never been coached, I don't know if that's an issue or not.


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Exactly, trying to figure out how this could be solved. The one thing I do (already) is clients who have already been with me a while (or just do a few lessons anycase) can always IM me about hands or theory. Granted sometimes I'm fairly busy and can't answer as well as if we were IN a session, but this allows some of the info to sink back.

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It's hard for a lot of material to sink in over a short period of time. It's good to have a lot of handouts and material the student can take away to review later, to reinforce the coaching, and a variety of activities to do within the 3 days.

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Yeah, I plan to hand out some stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Frequently, the coach goes to the players instead of having the players come to the coach. A disadvantage is that you have to add the travel/accomodation costs in explicitly, and it is easier for the student to focus on one subject when away from home. An advantage is that a group of friends can hire a coach, and each can get as much out of it as he likes.

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This is an option. I prefer my house though, obviously.

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How does this program compare to your regular 14 hour program in terms of cost? What is the hourly for the 14 individual sessions vs. the 3 day cram session?

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the reg program is 2100-2800$. I dont want to call it a cram session as well, since, well, it's not exactly a cram! =)

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Like any other live training sessions, it has its benefits and downsides. It can give a very good personal touch, since the student can interact directly. However, for poker, I think it's tough to do, as one has to play to understand some of the concepts. I always found it easy to play, and then ask a question about my play rather than ask in vacuum.

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Yeah, I agree with that.

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I don't think I will have the energy to fly to your place. It would be nice, if this session can be offered over Internet using some video streaming equipment. Not too hard to setup, actually. That way you can attract more people and will be cheaper for the students as well.

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Well, the big draw I'm trying to get across here is the personal touch. People tend to be busy, scheduling can be rough, (etc.) when dealing with sessions over the internet. Live it's another story; things are slowed down, questions are understood better.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

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I like the idea as well. Being coached over aim or something doesn't thrill me a whole lot. If I could learn all there is to learn by reading text on my computer screen, well, it would have happened already.

Live coaching is the only way I'd go and would recommend all coaches try to figure out a way to do that.


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Same here. BTW, if you ever find a good local coach, let me know.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

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Frequently, the coach goes to the players instead of having the players come to the coach. A disadvantage is that you have to add the travel/accomodation costs in explicitly, and it is easier for the student to focus on one subject when away from home. An advantage is that a group of friends can hire a coach, and each can get as much out of it as he likes.

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The obvious solution if for both to travel to, and meet in, Vegas. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The issue of distractions is true for the coach as well. I like the idea of the coach concentrating on just the coaching and not the everyday distractions of home life.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

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Frequently, the coach goes to the players instead of having the players come to the coach. A disadvantage is that you have to add the travel/accomodation costs in explicitly, and it is easier for the student to focus on one subject when away from home. An advantage is that a group of friends can hire a coach, and each can get as much out of it as he likes.

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The obvious solution if for both to travel to, and meet in, Vegas. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The issue of distractions is true for the coach as well. I like the idea of the coach concentrating on just the coaching and not the everyday distractions of home life.

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I hear that.

Any case, first student is scheduled for Nov 3rd, so hopefully he'll post his thoughts on the format and whether the program was worth it or not.

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Once I am off my stake and dipping into 400nl. I will be contacting you BF, only one request we have to go to Spike's Junkyard Dogs are you close to one?

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

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Once I am off my stake and dipping into 400nl. I will be contacting you BF, only one request we have to go to Spike's Junkyard Dogs are you close to one?

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heh, not sure where Junkyard Dogs is/are. =/ But sure, contact me whenever.

**Want to mention as well I've scheduled two of these workshops, so I'm hoping once complete the students chime in for suggestions/comments/criticisms/etc.

Review of the first trial
 

Dan Dubois (posts as Ddubois here) stayed with me and we did the program from the 5th to 8th (I think those dates are correct?). I havent been able to post MY review of the situation until now, and although I want him to write something (positive or negative, it's all good =) ) I think just having any feedback is a positive thing.

So -

The first thing is that I did not structure the workshop - or atleast present it in the light from what I imagined - correctly. I used my lessons as the bulk of our discussion fodder, but it seemed most of the value of the live play was when Dan and I (at the end) actually DID a session together, since we were able to implement discussion topics (the theory) and apply them (the practice)>

another concern prior to the first workshop was that the material would be too much to condense into the weekend to just "understand". Again, having the client with the information from the get go, then using the beginning discussions as review and questions over that, would've solved this.

Another thing is that both of our sleep schedules got very messed up. Dan flew in from Hawaii, and I stayed up all night to pick him up because he got in early. He also didn't sleep much on the plane. So, from the start we were working tired, which resulted in a less efficient working environment. (And both of us were grumpy!)

I am not sure if I priced it right, either, because in my mind I pictured 20 hours (the ceiling) of work, whereas perhaps people were expecting more. (so, again, 3k is low)

One cool thing is I was able to hook up my laptop to my TV and show things from that, but we couldn't get it to work with Dan's computer. so, again, playing on a big screen is sweet for a sweating session.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

If you wanna do like a take a SSNL(kid) to work day.

I would volunteer for this haha.

(Shooting for March of 08)

Re: Review of the first trial
 

I didn't really want to comment in public, because while I had significant problems with the way it all went down, I didn't want to slam Rob like that. I think Rob will do a much better job of both 1) properly setting expectations and 2) preparing the client for the event, so that the most effective learning can occur on-site. I feel his lesson material contains some valuable and thought-provoking stuff. And I think now that he's made all his mistakes with me (and there were lots! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), he'll provide a much better service to subsequent clients. I have not soured on the idea of a "poker workshop" at all.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Great stuff in here. Please get Ddubois to comment

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Bobby i will be flying over from the Uk and going to a few citis in the US in May with a friend. Are you able to put up and coach two people at the same time? Would you be prepared to offer discount for this?

Thanks

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Bobbo, PMd you

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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I am not sure if I priced it right, either, because in my mind I pictured 20 hours (the ceiling) of work, whereas perhaps people were expecting more. (so, again, 3k is low)

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That's to be expected. When someone packs a bag and flies across the country to learn poker, that's all they have to keep them occupied. You still have your life, they've only got the poker to do.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

BObbo, how much per hour. What is the breakdown of your program. Link if you have already posted it

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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BObbo, how much per hour. What is the breakdown of your program. Link if you have already posted it

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the coaching directory includes my program as well as other coaches.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

I didn't know you played chess bobbo ? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

Good idea. Do they charge for this?

Re: Coaching Idea, x-posted
 

bobbo,

you should get on aim one of these days ...

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Bobbo, PM'd you.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

I was Bobbo's 2nd student. I was a good winner at 1/2 and a slight winner at 2/4 going into the program. Now I feel that 90% of the time I'm the best player by a wide margin at my 2/4 tables. I think it will probably pay for itself within the next 1-2 months.
I'll write up a review later tonight, but the program is great and it revolutionized my game. I would recommend it to anybody who is looking to bring their game to a higher level.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Rob sent me the study materials a day or two early but I didn't get a chance to look at them prior to arriving at his place. As such, the lessons were pretty much broken down with me reading on the couch, and if anything in his book didn't make complete sense to me I'd ask him. From there I would take a quiz sometimes, and then we would go onto sweat/implementation. I loved the structure of this because I would read his ideas then see how they work in practice, and he would reinforce the ideas and note where I was straying from his conventional wisdom.

I'll give my grades based on each part of Rob's program, which is broken into 5 parts:
1. Approach to the game (C+)
2. Preflop (A+++)
3. Flop (A-)
4. Turn (B-)
5. River (C+)

1. Approach to the game.
Pretty basic stuff here, nothing that would make a lightbulb go off (at least for me). Maybe if somebody has problems with structuring their play, or has hardcore tilt problems it could help get their mind right.
2. Preflop.
Completely revolutionized my game. Made me realize how I was making mistakes and missing out on tons of EV. Since all later streets hinge on preflop play its pretty important also. Also since this was the first section we got to spend every sweat session analyzing this. I think part of the reason I loved it so much is because I had so much time to talk to Rob about it.
3. Flop
Again, very good stuff. Not as revolutionary as preflop, but definately found tons of spots where my play was not in line with optimal play. Had quite a bit of time to discuss it with Rob as well.
4/5. Turn and River
As I reread Rob's book I may find more pearls of wisdom in here than I found while in Boston. The main problem was that we didn't get much time to discuss/implement his ideas. The last day or two he was busy with the launch of his coaching site and didn't have his full time to devote to coaching me. Although I would have preferred a little more attention from him in these aspects, due to extenuating circumstances, I had been out there for a little longer than his original 3 day plan outlined in the OP, so I can't blame him for that really.

Overall it was definately a positive experience, and definately worth doing.

(Graphs or it didn't happen). Main difference is now green>blue.

Graph from before Rob's program

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9...bluezk8.th.jpg

Graph during/Since Rob's program (he gives you a complimentary luckbox too)

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/576/zcvmr2.jpg

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Bobbo,

I think I pm'd you recently, not sure if it went through.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

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I'd rather get advice on how to pick up chicks from you, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

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I'd rather get advice on how to pick up chicks from you, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

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I want advice on how to go into a final table of a poker tournament covering the entire table and finish 9th, you got any advice on that?

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

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I'd rather get advice on how to pick up chicks from you, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

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You did fine for yourself man, Jeanne is hot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

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I'd rather get advice on how to pick up chicks from you, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

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I want advice on how to go into a final table of a poker tournament covering the entire table and finish 9th, you got any advice on that?

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Lose every hand... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Review of the first trial
 

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Bobbo u should get like a WSOP house and just cram it with dudes to train/teach/sweat/etc. People can come and go throughout the WSOP and either pay a given rate for a certain amount of days...or pay a daily rate etc.

You'll be the "Mystery" of poker lol.

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not a bad idea...

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I'd rather get advice on how to pick up chicks from you, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

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You did fine for yourself man, Jeanne is hot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I know, but still thanks for saying!