NL25 KK
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($26.85)
Button ($13.90)
SB ($16)
BB ($24.30)
Hero ($29)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, MP calls $11.

Flop: ($28.35) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ???

MP was 45/28 after 29 hands. I cant believe that he calls my 4bet preflop. Without an ace I would push every flop. But the flop scared me because of the Ace and I think if I push only better hands will call. What should I do? Check/Call to induce a bluff? Check/fold is to weak, right? Or just push allin without a second thought?

Re: NL25 KK
 

You're pot committed with that raise. Push and pray, IMO.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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You're pot committed with that raise. Push and pray, IMO.

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Re: NL25 KK
 

You can not check/call to induce a bluff. If either villain or hero is betting, he is committed. The only hand you're afraid of here is AK. I lead this flop All-In. But I'd push all-in preflop as well, because you're committed if you're 4-bet is called anyways.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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You're pot committed with that raise. Push and pray, IMO.

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Re: NL25 KK
 

Uh, why not just check/call or push turn if it checks through. You're either way ahead or way behind... and if you push flop he's probably folding all the hands you beat (JJ/QQ) and calling with AK/AQ (assuming he calls your big raise pf w/AQ). If you check he may push with the hands you beat and if he checks through and you push turn he may look you up thinking you're bluffing.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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he's probably folding all the hands you beat (JJ/QQ)

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Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

Re: NL25 KK
 

definitely agree with milky, one of your main aims is to make your opponents make mistakes..by pushing you don't allow him to make the mistake (by pushing worse hands) whereas the check allows him this chance..(kinda a rehash of milkys post but didnt wanna just say 'i agree')

Re: NL25 KK
 

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Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

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you really dont think at NL25 JJ/QQ pushes this flop??

Re: NL25 KK
 

you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

Re: NL25 KK
 

I used to always automatically bet this; now I like a think and then check/call more.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

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you really dont think at NL25 JJ/QQ pushes this flop??

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I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

Re: NL25 KK
 

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you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

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Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

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Is this trying to say that a check is bad?? I dont see your point, if your line is "all ur chips are goin in no matter what" what does it matter if check/push turn with the heart as apposed to "push and pray" the flop. The heart is coming regardless. Also, I dont think he has much of a range outside AK that would be drawing to the heart, and that already has you beat..

Re: NL25 KK
 

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Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

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you really dont think at NL25 JJ/QQ pushes this flop??

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why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

Re: NL25 KK
 

FWIW, I find that when people just call my 4bet PF they have QQ/JJ.

Re: NL25 KK
 

I dont really see any value in pushing here but it isnt in outside the range of possiblilty that a 45/28 bets/pushes something we beat if we check here IMO.
In a nutshell agiant a guy with those stats and our 4 bet pre I have a hard time not stacking off here one way or the other but id rather check the flop.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

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Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

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and what is the difference between pushing the turn now and pushing the flop before? as i see it, with the third heart out there, he's now folding QQ/JJ whereas a flop push he might not be folding. he's still calling with AK/AQ, of coure calling with sets/flushes. i think in this scenario, both players checking the flop was bad for your hand.

when the heart doesn't come up, it changes nothing at all. and when the heart comes up, it's bad for you.

thoughts?

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

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why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

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If this was NL50/100 I would agree with you guys but I think your giving NL25 players too much credit, a lot of the time they are bad enough to do this..

Regardless, why does it matter?? If you push your not allowing him any opportunity to push a worse hand. Even if there is a only a 1% chance (much bigger than this imo) he will push worse hands if you check to him, why is this a bad move? Especially if your 'pot-committed' and push any turn card if he checks behind..

Re: NL25 KK
 

IMO his range of Ax hands is so small, and his overall range of hands is so wide, that stacking off on this flop can almost never be incorrect

Re: NL25 KK
 

I check the flop to induce a bluff. If he doesn't oblige, I shove any turn card. There's really no reason to worry getting drawn out on as the only flush draw hand that makes sense already has you beat.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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IMO his range of Ax hands is so small, and his overall range of hands is so wide, that stacking off on this flop can almost never be incorrect

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I really don't think it matters much either way. I'm just more inclined to check against this guy b/c he has some donkish stats (small sample size, I know).

Re: NL25 KK
 

I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

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Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

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and what is the difference between pushing the turn now and pushing the flop before? as i see it, with the third heart out there, he's now folding QQ/JJ whereas a flop push he might not be folding. he's still calling with AK/AQ, of coure calling with sets/flushes. i think in this scenario, both players checking the flop was bad for your hand.

when the heart doesn't come up, it changes nothing at all. and when the heart comes up, it's bad for you.

thoughts?

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this is a good point imo but at NL25 with his stats I think he pushes the flop (or even calls your turn shove with the heart) enough that checking the flop is still the best move..

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

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thinking about the hand, this might be the final conclusion. while i thought pushing is the best play here, i think check/calling is way better now, because you show weakness. just never fold to a push.

Re: NL25 KK
 

When are you ever going to call the extra bet from QQ/JJ? Last I checked, a bet from QQ/JJ looks exactly the same as a bet from AA/AK/AQ when you can't see his cards.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

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why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

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If this was NL50/100 I would agree with you guys but I think your giving NL25 players too much credit, a lot of the time they are bad enough to do this..

Regardless, why does it matter?? If you push your not allowing him any opportunity to push a worse hand. Even if there is a only a 1% chance (much bigger than this imo) he will push worse hands if you check to him, why is this a bad move? Especially if your 'pot-committed' and push any turn card if he checks behind..

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Well, the counter to this argument is that he may call a flop push with JJ or QQ given that he has less than a 1/2 psb behind. But if he checks behind on the flop and a heart peels off on the turn and hero shoves, he may decide that his hand is no good (if he doesn't hold a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) and decide to give up. I think we're just splitting hairs here given the amount of money left behind but I'm still in the check the flop camp. It just doesn't matter enough either way imo.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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When are you ever going to call the extra bet from QQ/JJ? Last I checked, a bet from QQ/JJ looks exactly the same as a bet from AA/AK/AQ when you can't see his cards.

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If you are suggesting check/fold, take a look at stack sizes.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I dont get those folks saying shove what hands are calling that we beat? at least if we check villan might bet qq/jj and we get an extra bet from him but he is never calling our push with those hands. this is a classic WA/WB situation and there are almost no cards that can come on the turn to change things so its not like giving a free card is a concern.

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thinking about the hand, this might be the final conclusion. while i thought pushing is the best play here, i think check/calling is way better now, because you show weakness. just never fold to a push.

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agree, as all the chips are going in anyway, just pushing the flop here is a huge mistake and violates a crucial concept - your aim is to make your opponents make mistakes. By pushing your opponent wont get it in with worse hands (or much less often). By checking you allow him to make the mistake and he gets it all in with worse hands much more often..

Re: NL25 KK
 

I said push and pray. There's two whole cards in the deck that will convince us that we're strong enough to call/bet if we check this flop. You're basically folding a 3/1 pot if you're saying wait and see, because you're just not going to catch up. It's just... not going to happen. If you really don't think there's at least a 25% chance he's got QQ/JJ, you've got the sickest read on villain in the history of 25nl. Both stacks are very short; do you really think he doesn't call anything without an ace?

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

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why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

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If this was NL50/100 I would agree with you guys but I think your giving NL25 players too much credit, a lot of the time they are bad enough to do this..

Regardless, why does it matter?? If you push your not allowing him any opportunity to push a worse hand. Even if there is a only a 1% chance (much bigger than this imo) he will push worse hands if you check to him, why is this a bad move? Especially if your 'pot-committed' and push any turn card if he checks behind..

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Well, the counter to this argument is that he may call a flop push with JJ or QQ given that he has less than a 1/2 psb behind. But if he checks behind on the flop and a heart peels off on the turn and hero shoves, he may decide that his hand is no good (if he doesn't hold a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) and decide to give up. I think we're just splitting hairs here given the amount of money left behind but I'm still in the check the flop camp. It just doesn't matter enough either way imo.

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yeah your right about the counter argument but the -EV your getting from this situation doesn't outweigh the +EV your getting from the times he shoves to your check on the flop with a worse hand (and also when the heart doesnt peel off)

Re: NL25 KK
 

Seems like an easy check and I don't really like the 4 bet size bet w/e.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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I said push and pray. There's two whole cards in the deck that will convince us that we're strong enough to call/bet if we check this flop. You're basically folding a 3/1 pot if you're saying wait and see, because you're just not going to catch up. It's just... not going to happen. If you really don't think there's at least a 25% chance he's got QQ/JJ, you've got the sickest read on villain in the history of 25nl. Both stacks are very short; do you really think he doesn't call anything without an ace?

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Firstly, I don't think the point is that we're trying to catch up by checking. The point is because of our pot-odds all our chips are going in regardless of turn (we never fold this hand), doesn't matter if it helps us, him or neither of us..

With your second point, I think the thing is given he has JJ/QQ (or other hands we beat), the amount of times he calls our shove is much less than the amount of times he shoves to our check (+ calls our turn shove), thus a check is more +EV

Re: NL25 KK
 

If you think he does this 70% with Ax, it's still +EV by $.33


HINT: LOOK AT STATS

Re: NL25 KK
 

You win the pot 100% of the time if he folds. You lose the pot, let's say, 70% of the time if he pushes and you call. He's pushing 100% of the time if you check, and you can't make an EV decision based on that read. You might get him to make a mistake there, but you're also giving yourself a significant opportunity to make the same sort of mistake.

Do you REALLY think he's folding a push anyways? Look at his stack! Look at his stats! He's in the exact same position we are.

Re: NL25 KK
 

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You win the pot 100% of the time if he folds. You lose the pot, let's say, 70% of the time if he pushes and you call.

Do you REALLY think he's folding a push anyways? Look at his stack! Look at his stats! He's in the exact same position we are.

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what you're saying is: it doesn't matter because nobody is folding anyways. and i agree, that should be the case with both players being aware of stack sizes and pot odds.

but since we don't know if villain is aware of pot odds, what is the best play if there's a chance of 1% that he isn't aware of stack sizes and pot odds? clearly, check/calling is best then because when he is not aware he does not call a push with KK.

Re: NL25 KK
 

Check and call a shove. He might shove with some hands we beat but its less likely he'll call with those hands.

Re: NL25 KK
 

If he has no idea of pot odds, he also probably doesn't know anything about reads, either. How do you know he puts you on KK if you're playing against the donk of the century? There's too many hypotheticals there. If you go all in and he folds, he made a major league mistake based on pot odds. Bar none. You ARE giving him the opportunity to make a mistake, it's just a different mistake.

Re: NL25 KK
 

For that matter, if you push with an ace high flop, he could put you on AA and fold AJ-AQ. You're assuming the guy is clairvoyant with his reads but completely ignorant of pot odds?

Re: NL25 KK
 

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You win the pot 100% of the time if he folds. You lose the pot, let's say, 70% of the time if he pushes and you call. He's pushing 100% of the time if you check, and you can't make an EV decision based on that read. You might get him to make a mistake there, but you're also giving yourself a significant opportunity to make the same sort of mistake.

Do you REALLY think he's folding a push anyways? Look at his stack! Look at his stats! He's in the exact same position we are.

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You really think hes pushing 100% of the time we check to him???? Your saying hes pot committed like us but thats assuming he knows hes pot-committed, which at 25NL is v. debateable

Point is hes not calling 100% of the time if WE push. I dont really get your argument because you saying he pushes 100% of the time is in favor of a check..if this is true (not imo) and he calls a shove from us less than 100% of the time (which is definitely true) then we should check right?.. (because we beat some of his range)