Two Plus Two Newer Archives - Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

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- - Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=382668)

Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

"Daniel played Patrick heads up pot limit omaha every day for a week. Patrick wins ten million dollars in the first six days and is paid. On the seventh day Daniel wins one million but Patrick hasn’t paid him yet. Then Patrick finds out that on the last day when he lost Daniel was actually playing each hand with 5 cards instead of 4 having dealt himself an extra card each time. Patrick finds out about this and says to Daniel ‘I’m not paying you, because I know you were cheating.’ Doyle then turns to Patrick and says “-------, did Daniel put a gun to your head and force you to keep playing?""

There's a difference between an agreement in a golfround and blatant cheating in poker.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

but theres no difference between cheating in both

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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blah blah blah I'm a Welcher blah blah blah blah

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Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

the only thing that i don't understand is that on the second or third day, he agrees to double the stakes and take the action of mark when he decides to walk off. just seems like such poor judgement after phil has been crushing for a day or two.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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blah blah blah I'm a Welcher blah blah blah blah

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Yeah seriously. He sounds really bitter about getting hustled.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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blah blah blah I'm a Welcher blah blah blah blah

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Yeah seriously. He sounds really bitter about getting CHEATED.

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Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

INNNNNNNN,

i think they will settle this as friends the next time they meet face to face.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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Yeah seriously. He sounds really bitter about getting CHEATED

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QFMFT

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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but theres no difference between cheating in both

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Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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INNNNNNNN,

i think they will settle this as friends the next time they meet face to face.

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Are you leveling? They met face to face, with six arbitrators, and still couldn't settle it.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

I still can't understand why he continued to play and play and play. It doesn't make any sense. I don't play golf, but say I'm playing 9 ball and someone asks to be spotted the 7. If, after ten games, he's destroyed me each time, I'm not spotting him the 9 anymore or I'm leaving the game.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

Judging by your responses it doesn't look like you actually read Ram's post otnemem.

I certainly wouldn't want to know anyone who considers Phil's behaviour acceptable, and I'm surprised he hasn't come out and said the whole matter is closed long ago because I certainly wouldn't want the fact that I lied to and cheated my friends for money to be a constant topic of discussion.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

Why the hell is he even bringing up friendship? They're playing high stakes golf. Any competitve person will tell you that when you compete against somebody, you're not their friend for that time. You're trying to beat them. Did Barkley complain to MJ when he was handing it to the Suns in the playoffs? No, because its the nature of the game. They're both hustlers, Ram should understand this.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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Why the hell is he even bringing up friendship?

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That's a good point, even if you're not playing a friend cheating is still wrong.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

when will people understand that it's not cheating...

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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when will people understand that it's not cheating...

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Lying about your Golf Handicapp isn't cheating?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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Judging by your responses it doesn't look like you actually read Ram's post otnemem.

I certainly wouldn't want to know anyone who considers Phil's behaviour acceptable, and I'm surprised he hasn't come out and said the whole matter is closed long ago because I certainly wouldn't want the fact that I lied to and cheated my friends for money to be a constant topic of discussion.

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Actually, I read the whole thing. Did I defend Phil Ivey at any point? You don't think Ram should have had the sense to back out at any point?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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when will people understand that it's not cheating...

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Lying about your Golf Handicapp isn't cheating?

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in this context no.

Blair Rodman explained it better than I ever could so I'll quote him:

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I’ve been golf gambling for over 20 years. In fact, it’s my favorite form of gambling. I learned early on that there’s a big difference between golfing gamblers and regular golfers.
Golf as played by normal people is a genteel sport set apart from most by its’ traditions of honesty and good sportsmanship. Golf to gamblers is simply another medium in which to try to get an advantage over your opponents. Standard protocols of normal golf have nothing to do with golf gambling. However, there are some protocols that apply to golf gambling.
The first thing I learned about golf gambling is that every experienced golf gambler lies about his abilities. This is part of the game! If you ask a group of golf gamblers how they are playing, virtually every one is going to say he hasn’t been playing, various body parts hurt, his game is off, etc. This is SOP! If you don’t understand this, or refuse to play that game, you are setting yourself up for a big fall. It’s not lying in this context, just as bluffing in poker isn’t lying in the traditional sense. It is within the context of the game. Once all the [censored]is out of the way, you can get down to real negotiations. Often in big money matches the negotiations fall flat and there’s no game. No big deal. I’ve been on the first tee many times when the game falls apart.
If this story is true, Phil simply used an age-old tactic in golf gambling. If you’re playing better than anyone expects and are going to play for serious money, are you going to tell your opponents the truth? Not if you want to survive in the golf-gambling world. How did Phil know his opponents weren’t trying to do the same to him, not that it matters for the scope of this discussion.
The bottom line is that Phil’s opponents are professional gamblers who got involved in a gambling game they seem to know little about. To get involved with someone in a golf match for serious money just on the basis of his word is dumb, and dumb people don’t survive in this milieu.

To quote Marc Goodwin, assuming that post was really from him:

“At the start of the game we said to Phil that as we haven't played for 3 months and he must have improved we need to adjust the handicaps. We could not agree and we were doomed to no game until Ram said "does Eric Lingdren still give you 10 shots" to which Phil replied yes!!On that piece of information we had a game. As we always ***** about handicaps throughout the match Phil suggested that we agree to play 18 holes with no adjustment and then adjust for the next series of games. We agreed

Think about it. They knew Phil was improving rapidly. They were on the verge of not having a match because Phil wouldn’t agree to an adjustment. But, instead of walking away they wanted to play so badly that they believed Phil when he said EDog still gives him shots. Perhaps this is because, as Marc states, they had been getting the best of him in the past and wanted more. Then they agreed to a match for very big money and, to make it worse, agreed to Phil’s stipulation that there’d be no mid-round adjustment. Sorry guys, you lost the negotiation game, which is every bit as important in golf gambling as the playing of the game itself. Pay up, lesson learned.

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Some more thoughts on golf gambling:

It seems to me that many posters in this thread are confusing golf with golf gambling. I love golf and would play without gambling—if no one would bet with me. However, not many gamblers feel that way. (Russ Hamilton, one of the best golf gamblers ever, told me a few years ago that a guy invited him to Augusta. Most golfers would kill for the chance. I asked when he (we) were going. He said, “I’m not going there with him. He won’t play for anything.) Very few gamblers keep actual handicaps. I keep a legitimate handicap and like to play amateur tournaments. However, that’s where the real cheaters are! There isn’t an understanding in amateur tournaments that sandbagging is part of the game. To keep an illegitimate handicap is cheating, period. This is because there’s no negotiation involved. The players are taken at their word. I lived in Palm Springs a few years ago and couldn’t believe the things I saw. Handicaps are designed so that a player should only play to his handicap about 20% of the time. To shoot 10 strokes below your handicap should happen less than 1 in 50,000 times. Yet, in almost every tournament I played there someone with a 20 handicap would shoot in the ‘70s in the last round. A lot of guys make a living cheating these tournaments. It got so bad that I quit playing them, unless I really wanted to play and then I pretty much accepted that I couldn’t win.
The gamblers system is much more efficient. When I’d meet someone new at a course in Palm Springs, the standard conversation went like this:

Stranger: “What’s your handicap?”
Me: “About a 5.”
Stranger: “Ok I’m a 15, so I’ll take 5 shots a side. Let's go.”
Me; “No problem, unless you want to play for more than $5. Then we need to talk.”

I would never play a stranger for any kind of serious money unless I had some reliable information about their game. I would also never get in a big match with someone who I knew might have improved rapidly unless I knew his story. Among gamblers this information is fairly easy to gather. I’ve never played golf with Ivey, but I know though the grapevine that he’s worked very hard on his game and has improved a lot. I’ve also heard that he was a live one when he first started playing the game, but now he’s almost impossible to match up with. If I had any doubts about someone’s current game, if I played him at all it would be for small stakes until I got a good feel for what I was up against.
I have a fairly large group of players I gamble with. We all know each other’s games pretty well and generally have to resort to a system of adjusting after each match if someone wins or loses a certain amount of bets. For the most part the money goes back and forth and we play those matches because we like the game and the action. (The same thing happens in the big game with Doyle, Chip, Bobby Baldwin, occasionally Michael Jordan and a few others. Their back and forths are just bigger). Big money heads up matches are fairly rare among players who know each other’s games. However, this doesn’t mean there are never any big money decisions. A big part of the skill of golf gambling is handicapping different types of bets. If a game can be devised where both sides think they have an edge, you have the conditions for a big bet. If you sit around B&M poker tables, a lot of the conversation is about golf and setting up matches for the next day. Scrambles are popular these days. For instance, a negotiation might go like this:

“Me and Jeff will scramble Richard, Jack, Greg and Greg. And Greg gets the blue tees.” (Greg and Greg are the same person, but he hits two shots)
“OK but Greg only gets one putt.”
“No, he needs two putts.”
“Then he has to play the black tees.”
“No he gets blue tees and two putts on 9 holes.”
“Ok, I don’t like it but we’ll try it. How much…..”

Often these kinds of matches will be negotiated for an emergency 9 or 18 after the early round of heads up matches.

When poker players get the urge to enter the golf gambling world the pattern is generally the same. They are often very bad players who don’t understand the golf-gambling game and get taken advantage of by experienced gamblers. Eventually they figure out that something isn’t right and smarten up to the fact that they are being hustled. Then they either quit playing, or accept the realities and learn how to negotiate. If they stay in the game, eventually they figure out that they have an opportunity to recoup their losses and then some if they get better without their opponents’ knowledge and get games in which they have a big edge. Sound familiar? Getting this edge is a limited opportunity. The improvement curve in golf is sharp at the beginning but levels out as a player gets better. While it’s fairly easy to go from a 40 handicap to a 20. it’s much harder to go from a 10 to a 5. Even with a system of adjustment the bad player figures to win a lot of money as he improves. The smart gambler won’t fall for this, insisting or major adjustments as his opponent gets better.

I’m not saying that the things I’ve described are good or bad( other than the handicap sandbagging), but they are the realities. I’m also not saying there’s no cheating in golf gambling. The rules of play are established, and breaking them is cheating. Since most gambling golfers don’t know the rules, a bastardized version is often used. The most extreme variation is called “gambler rules”. Under gamblers rules, you can’t touch your ball anywhere before you’re on the green without incurring a penalty. On a sprinkler head—hit it. Cart path—hit it. On top of a golf cart—you guessed it. Many players use grease (Vaseline or something like it) on their club face to straighten out shots. Occasionally this is specifically outlawed. Few players adhere to the 14-club rule. I knew one guy who carried about twelve woods and four putters

There are people who will move balls, drop balls from their pocket, step on your ball, and lots of other things. Never take a partner you don’t trust, as you may get dumped. Just like in any gambling endeavor, you need to have your eyes wide open and your senses acute. The good thing about the gamblers’ system is that cheating players are usually exposed and shunned in games. That is, unless they are so bad that they are still live even with cheating.

So what happens when the game is a fair matchup? That’s when the really talented golf gamblers step up. In my mind there are two kinds of successful golf gamblers (other than cheaters). Some will never play a game where they don’t have an edge off the first tee. Their whole game is in the negotiation and it’s fairly easy to play when there’s little pressure. Games often dry up for these players. The serious ones take to the road looking for new suckers. Read abut Titanic Thompson if you want to see a real hustler in action. The other type of successful player is the one who can play under pressure. Sure, he’ll take a good game if it comes up, but he relies more on his ability to outperform his opponent when it counts. Many players can’t make the shot when it counts. A player who can step up when it counts doesn’t need a lopsided game. In fact, against certain players he can take a bit the worst of the matchup and still be successful.

Sorry this got long, but I love this game!

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There are no established handicaps. In this world they have no significance. If someone were to pull out a forged handicap card, they’d get laughed off the tee. No one would believe them. Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker. When my group meets before playing, we all tells our lies, fake our pains, etc, laugh about it and then get on with the real talks. For the most part, our games are already set from previous experience and adjustments. This is a matter of necessity, because otherwise we might never tee off. However, there are usually some team bets or other odd wagers negotiated to make it more interesting. If you are out-negotiated, you accept it and go on.

For big money matches, the negotiation process is more involved, with more involved intelligence gathering. Asking opinions from other players who are respected for their match-handicapping ability is common. Often people not playing in the match will have action on one side or the other and will come out to sweat the match and maybe make more side bets. Watching respected handicappers closely as far as who they want to bet on which side can give clues as to the balance of the match.

-There are established rules and protocols. They are just different from the other golf arenas. Often specific things, such as how to play a ball if it’s hit into the desert, are negotiated. The fact that practices such as using grease (which does help high handicappers, BTW) carrying more than 14 clubs, etc, are verboten in the other golf arenas means nothing. However, the rules that are establishes must be followed. (Occasionally the stipulation will be that actual golf rules are followed). To do differently is cheating, and cheaters will be ostracized. It’s silly to say that shooting someone or even moving a ball when it’s against the rules is fair game. Golf gambling isn’t golf per se. The game is just a means of gambling, just as a deck of cards or a pair of dice. The rules evolve to facilitate the gambling, but the rules of the day must be followed.

This thread is a perfect example of people living in different worlds and not understanding others than their own. I think one of the things that is obvious from this thread is that people from outside the US are more traditional than Americans and have trouble fully comprehending the golf gambling arena as practiced by Americans. It’s possible that Ivey’s non-American victims didn’t fully understand which arena Phil was playing in. But, I think they did. Here’s a quote from Goodwin;

"tomorrow we head off with Phil Ivey and Gus Hanson for a high stakes golf match with my partner in crime Ram Vaswani. One round of golf is worth a year’s winnings on the Europen Tour so, as you can imagine, some serious verbal takes place, with all sides trying to negotiate the best handicap - the reason we win is that Ram is different class at winding up Mr Ivey."

To me it’s obvious that they simply lost the negotiation game. They made a bad game, and then compounded the mistake by agreeing to a no-adjustment stipulation, thereby not leaving themselves an out. To get mad is one thing. To not pay is another. I think they’ll pay. They are gamblers and there’s a code. Whether they’ll play with Phil again is another question.

There is a real question of being able to move seamlessly from world to world without the lines becoming blurred. Very similar to poker. Bluffing is basically lying. Does this mean that all poker players are liars away from the table? Of course not—some may be, some not. Is someone who lies in a golf negotiation in the gambling world a liar otherwise? No, he’s simply playing the game by the rules. However, if he carried this over to the handicap golf arena, he’d be a liar and a cheat in that world.

The motto of this story—know what game you are playing before you play it.

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Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

anyone else bored of 'that golf game' yet? i just realised i am. how many times can the same story be retold with slight variation?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I still can't understand why he continued to play and play and play. It doesn't make any sense.

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He obv thought he was getting the best of it over time.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I still can't understand why he continued to play and play and play. It doesn't make any sense.

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He obv thought he was getting the best of it over time.

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And who's fault is this? Refer to my nine ball example.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

cliff notes:

phil = liar
daniel = idiot
ram = not paying

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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cliff notes:

phil = liar
daniel = idiot
ram = not paying

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Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

If Daniels having a dream about being violated by PA and Antonius doesn't give him a reach around does Daniel still wake up with a wet patch?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

What does the story of DN and PA playing Omaha have to do with this golf story?

And how do you deal yourself 5 cards instead of 4 over and over and it not get noticed?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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What does the story of DN and PA playing Omaha have to do with this golf story?

And how do you deal yourself 5 cards instead of 4 over and over and it not get noticed?

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lol, the story wasn't real.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

I guess the same way you improve 12 strokes or 28 combined strokes (or whatever the numbers Ram cited) for two days straight and not get noticed enough for your opponent to call it out...

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I guess the same way you improve 12 strokes or 28 combined strokes (or whatever the numbers Ram cited) for two days straight and not get noticed enough for your opponent to call it out...

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QFT. You don't.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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when will people understand that it's not cheating...

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Lying about your Golf Handicapp isn't cheating?

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in this context no.

Blair Rodman explained it better than I ever could so I'll quote him:

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Blair Rodman goes into great detail about what HE finds acceptable in hustling and cheating on a golf course. How does that carry over to everyone else?

Because he does it a lot doesn't make it right. Let's say I skip all the middle garbage (of a game with supposed friends wherein I steal (ahem, I mean hustle) their money) and just get straight to the point and pull out a gun and take their money. Let's say I do this for a livin and find it fair and reasonable and I do it at high stakes. Does that make my morale code applicable to everyone else who might attempt armed robbery?

Why do so many think that blatant theft cloaked in a very basic subterfuge of a "good hustle" is somehow morally acceptable when they find armed robbery reprehensible?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

A sucker is born every minute. Pay the man his money.

I used to play pool and hustle a lot. If you see a mark, you take it down. If you don’t, another shark will. Happens every day in pool halls, Wall Street, casinos etc…

This was set up nicely and Ivey was going through the motions. Ram had no chance, he continued because of stupidity, mad tilt and stubbornness.

Ivey just showed that he’s a classless poker celebrity and really doesn’t care how he’s being portrayed. Hey, who gives a s.h.it “all about getting paid biatch!”

Ivey “the hustler” pwned Ram but may have burned a lot of bridges. It may cost him even more money down the road. If there was ever going to be another poker boom, his image has been tarnished. Some sponsors may pass on him, not like cares anyways.

Great hustlers get paid by suckers, without even letting them know they just got hustled.
Ivey is not great yet.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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i liked this part. he comes up with the idea to use arbitrators, but has no intention of paying.. so what's the point of arbitration?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

Or that he brought Barry Greenstein, a very good friend of phil's, and he was surprised he was on Phil's side.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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i liked this part. he comes up with the idea to use arbitrators, but has no intention of paying.. so what's the point of arbitration?

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Please learn to understand and comprehend the english language, nowhere in his post does he says he had no intention of paying, he just states that he thinks he shouldnt be paying.

Let me illustrate it for ya.

DARYN : Did you get a speeding ticket yesterday?
other guy : Yea, but I think it was giving to me wrongly and I shouldnt have to pay it
DARYN : WOW YOU ARENT GOING TO PAY, YOU GONNA GO TO JAIL IF YOU DONT
other guy: wow dude relax, I just said I shouldnt have to pay, not that I wont pay...

Kinda feel stupid that I as a dutch native speaker that I have to explain simple english comprehension to a probly US resident.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

In all the pages and pages of comment on this, from participants and others, I've read a lot of analogies. Every single one has been spurious and pointless. They just don't add anything. Can we stick to golf and what actually happened ?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

My silly take on Ram's comments:

"Phil openly agrees that before this match our relationship was one of friendship."
You had to ask him if you were friends?

"Phil also forgets to mention something …"
Why didn’t you ask?

"My second point is regarding raising the stakes. At the start I wanted to play $10,000 a hole and Phil wanted to play bigger. We agreed to play $20,000 "
Clearly, this highlights betting NEGOTIATION.

"When it looked like Mark had had enough I offered to take his side…"
Your partner gets crushed but you want to keep playing. You obviously though you weren’t being cheated at this point.

"it was never a free-roll for me, I was always paying if I lost. "
But you haven’t paid.

"I haven’t got a problem with losing money to anyone if they are playing well to their proper handicap."
So he’s playing fair in the first rounds but you are down due to …?

"on day two it turns out they weren’t playing well at all on the first day they were playing bad because now we were seeing gradual and major improvement. Basically we were seeing their true standard of play."
Why not make an adjustment then?

"True, maybe I could have stopped at this point but this is when I was getting very suspicious"
So you decided to freeroll?

"Anyway Mark couldn’t take it anymore and walked off after another couple of holes and I played on another 4 or 5."
(kept freerolling?)

"There is no exact point when I should or shouldn’t have stopped. I thought something was wrong but wasn’t sure about it until later. "
If the money is a big deal, then why not stop at first inkling?

"Seeing him play during that day there is no question that there was significant improvement but it’s difficult to say exactly how much. "
After getting crushed, I still didn’t know if I was being hustled?

"I therefore thought that once I have spoken to Phil I wouldn’t have to pay anything as there was no way that he couldn’t agree that the game should be completely void.
Then there was talk of finding the value of the missing shots in the handicap and taking it off the money that was won/lost but I didn’t agree that I should pay anything due to the fact that it was a total con."
If he overstates his handicap, it’s a PARTIAL con. Now you know his real handicap and can adjust.

"There is one other thing that I wanted to mention that was said in this meeting. When discussing about how many shots I should have received for the fact that I hadn’t been playing ..."
You mentioned before the match that you hadn’t been playing, if this was relevant, why not adjust shots before tee?

If you wanted this matter to remain private, do your part. This shows the logic of a freeroller. Well he's talking so I will. Well, he's cheating so I will.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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I dont think it has anything to do with comprehension, its just obvious that Ram had no intention of paying. He has somehow convinced himself that he is not a welcher, and since he shouldn't have to pay, he won't. I think his reputation is tarnished much more that Phil's. Ram talks about how hustler's were dealt with in the old days, how does he think welcher's got dealt with. If it was me there would already be a hole in the desert with someone's name on it.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.

with this logic, you guys should support grimstar for not going allin on that coin flip, because as far as he knew, his opponent wasn't only going to go allin unlesss he had the best hand.