Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Say you have the option of choosing between the following two strategies:

(Deep we'll say is 50bb+)

1. Play very tight/aggressive while the stacks are deep to create a tight image. As the stacks become more shallow (level 2+), loosen up and take advantage of your image. You can steal the blinds more, and will be able to take down the large postflop pots more often (which are the most important).

2. Play very loose/aggressive while the stacks are deep because you can afford to splash around and see flops in position. Create a fairly loose image, and when the stacks become more shallow, use this image to get villain to get a lot of chips in with a weak hand. Here, you know your image, and won't over commit yourself with marginal hands.

What does your strategy more closely resemble? Which type of opponent would you rather play against? Which do more successful players use? Without considering your opponent's style, what other big picture strategies exist?

I definitely play strategy #2, but I'm not so sure its better than strategy #1.

Thoughts?

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

I have played strategy 2 exclusively and I've decided it's not for me right now. I play at low buy-ins and I don't really have enough experience to maximize this strategy. I'm moving to strategy 1 and slowly move to 2 as I move up in limits.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

I want to say that for cash games, #2 is better, but I can't explain why.

In HUSNGs where in Level 3 its a max of 30bb effective stacks, it seems like you'll profit more with #1. Even at higher stakes, I don't think I can make a good argument for why #2 is better.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Definitely #2, IMO. I think there is certainly middle ground, but approaching any HU match with a "very tight" mindset will lead to any good player pushing you around a lot.

-- Collin

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Something to consider: In pretty much every "pro" HU video I have seen they start with #1 to build their image then switch to #2 once they get to know their opponent.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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Definitely #2, IMO. I think there is certainly middle ground, but approaching any HU match with a "very tight" mindset will lead to any good player pushing you around a lot.

-- Collin

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You didn't really offer any kind of argument with respect to the stacks and the length of the blind levels which are definitely relevant.

I can see in a cash game - yes, but SNG no. I think the BB you gain from having a tight image when the blinds are high is greater than the BB you gain from playing loose for 5 minutes with 50bb+ stacks.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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Something to consider: In pretty much every "pro" HU video I have seen they start with #1 to build their image then switch to #2 once they get to know their opponent.

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Again -- you're probably remembering cash videos, right? Cardrunners only has a few HUSNG videos.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Level 3: maniac.

I did try something that resembles level one for about 15 games, but it made my decisions way harder.

I don't know what most successful players generally use as I don't find myself versus one too often, but it is one that I play against and I feel like they know how to react to me. I don't really believe that there is a pigeon-hole style that works best. Just play, adjust, re-adjust, adjust. I think that quickly attacking my opponent works on two levels. The first is that they have no idea what I am doing at first, and the second is that by the time they do react, I have already set a dozen traps for them to fall into. I try not to think about "later," as I open my game up more at the 15/30 level, and pray I don't see the 50/100s. I think that the best way to play is to think about "now" if there is a time-limit and you know you aren't going to be playing the person in the near future. I don't think that many players adjust fast enough, they simply try to trap me into bluffing them. Big picture strategy for me is to get the game over with ASAP, in less than 50 hands.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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I want to say that for cash games, #2 is better, but I can't explain why.

In HUSNGs where in Level 3 its a max of 30bb effective stacks, it seems like you'll profit more with #1. Even at higher stakes, I don't think I can make a good argument for why #2 is better.

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I agree to this with a caveat. If you change 'very tight' to 'conservative/keeping the pot small' then I'd feel better about it.

A lot of opponents seem to think that if you're not aggressive then by default you're tight, and that is obviously far from the truth.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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Something to consider: In pretty much every "pro" HU video I have seen they start with #1 to build their image then switch to #2 once they get to know their opponent.

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Again -- you're probably remembering cash videos, right? Cardrunners only has a few HUSNG videos.

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The SNG videos kind of suck in my opinion, but even in those I've noticed this at least to some extent.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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Level 3: maniac.

I did try something that resembles level one for about 15 games, but it made my decisions way harder.

I don't know what most successful players generally use as I don't find myself versus one too often, but it is one that I play against and I feel like they know how to react to me. I don't really believe that there is a pigeon-hole style that works best. Just play, adjust, re-adjust, adjust. I think that quickly attacking my opponent works on two levels. The first is that they have no idea what I am doing at first, and the second is that by the time they do react, I have already set a dozen traps for them to fall into. I try not to think about "later," as I open my game up more at the 15/30 level, and pray I don't see the 50/100s. I think that the best way to play is to think about "now" if there is a time-limit and you know you aren't going to be playing the person in the near future. I don't think that many players adjust fast enough, they simply try to trap me into bluffing them. Big picture strategy for me is to get the game over with ASAP, in less than 50 hands.

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Your point about adjusting to your opponent is perfectly valid and you definitely have to do this to be a good heads up player. But, consider this: when you raise preflop with two unpaired cards, you'll only hit the flop something like 1/3 of the time. You'll have some draws on top of that 1/3 too. When you only have 30bb and you raise preflop and are called, the pot will be something like 6bb. You fire out a c-bet of 4. You've now invested 7/30 bb of your stack. Would you rather your opponent respect your c-bet or play loosely against you? I'd rather him respect me, because I usually won't have a big hand (as it is heads up). You can argue that you'll sometimes have a big hand when he plays back, but, if we're talking about long term expected value, having your opponent fold to a c-bet where he might have played back will make you more than the chips you make when he plays back and you happen to have a good hand and it holds up. No?

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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I agree to this with a caveat. If you change 'very tight' to 'conservative/keeping the pot small' then I'd feel better about it.

A lot of opponents seem to think that if you're not aggressive then by default you're tight, and that is obviously far from the truth.

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Well... how do you keep the pot small without playing passively? Like, don't c-bet without a hand? Let it go to showdown and let him see that you didn't bet your two overcards the entire way? Play pretty tight and passive and evolve to loose/aggressive as the blinds go up?

Thats interesting...

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Unless you play high or play the rare minority good player, you won't really be able to work off of a "tight image" like you think. Most people play off their hand and only react to extreme strategies (aka open fold 75% of hands or standard open 5x with 75% of hands, often fire 3, etc.).

I have an overall strategy preflop that I make a lot less changes to from opponent to opponent, but I really don't have a certain postflop "strategy." I try to play the player 100%. Without reads in situations there's obviously standard plays, but I don't think this is a question of "this is correct, so is this." In my mind, there is always a best line, action, etc. I try to find that best line every single hand I play in.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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But, consider this: when you raise preflop with two unpaired cards, you'll only hit the flop something like 1/3 of the time. You'll have some draws on top of that 1/3 too.

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About 60% of the time my opponent misses, and will unlikely call without "proper odds," and most people don't know what that means anyways.

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When you only have 30bb and you raise preflop and are called, the pot will be something like 6bb. You fire out a c-bet of 4. You've now invested 7/30 bb of your stack. Would you rather your opponent respect your c-bet or play loosely against you?

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An opponent firing back at me destroys my ability to read hands.

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I'd rather him respect me, because I usually won't have a big hand (as it is heads up). You can argue that you'll sometimes have a big hand when he plays back, but, if we're talking about long term expected value, having your opponent fold to a c-bet where he might have played back will make you more than the chips you make when he plays back and you happen to have a good hand and it holds up. No?

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This is opponent and board dependent, as a general rule I have to be willing to call with hands that most people are willing to toss, because my opponents are more likely to over-value their hand. But, yes, that is essentially the strategy. I want my opponent to fold to the point that he is forced to make bad calls with a shorter stack.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Remember that building an image on purpose means you are giving away value hoping to win it back and more later. But say you have built a tight image, you are just as likely to get good hands hands from which you will get little action as you are to get bad hands from which you will steal a lot of pots.

It seems to me that in the end you are just giving away value by building an image. So I agree with ChicagoRy that one should just make the most out of each hand.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

Building tight image early doesn't seem good. As a better player, you have an edge in first two levels and your edge decreases at later levels. A villain will realize that you changed gears, so it doesn't matter if you start attacking right away. Also, when the blinds reach 50/100 and you start pushing all in a lot, he will know you changed gears. But even if you were attacking from the begginning, he couldn't do anything without cards so image really doesn't help you much at this level. You are giving away a lot of potential value by trying to create a tight image early. Especially in turbo SNG's this approach costs you money in the long run, hurts your winrate and you are not able to take full value out of your postflop skills.

Re: Turbo HUSNGs Big Picture Strategy
 

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I agree to this with a caveat. If you change 'very tight' to 'conservative/keeping the pot small' then I'd feel better about it.

A lot of opponents seem to think that if you're not aggressive then by default you're tight, and that is obviously far from the truth.

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Well... how do you keep the pot small without playing passively? Like, don't c-bet without a hand? Let it go to showdown and let him see that you didn't bet your two overcards the entire way? Play pretty tight and passive and evolve to loose/aggressive as the blinds go up?

Thats interesting...

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During the 10/20 level and the first half of the 15/30 level I try to nickel and dime my opponents with lots of min betting on dry boards, not 3 betting a wide range, and getting small (and probably sub-optimal) value out of bottom and middle pair type hands. Obviously I try to get more out of big hands by building pots, but in general I keep bluffs to a minimum and spend the first 10 mins or so figuring out the opponent.

Now often times the match will be over by this point but around the end of the 2nd level I tend to kick it into another gear, raising almost every button, jacking it from the BB, and making strong CBs. By making sure I don't take myself out of the match during the first two levels I am almost always ahead at this point and it takes opponents a while to get accustomed to my changing gears.

I hope that gives a better description of what I was trying to say in my earlier post.