Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I am predominantly a live player these days and normally make it out to the casino to play 2 or 3 sessions a week. I am fairly quiet at the tables, rarely saying much more than "nice hand" or engaging in polite small talk. I almost never talk while in a hand, but yesterday I did something that I had never done before and I could really use your opinion on whether or not I crossed the line here. Here's the situation:

Skip to post-flop action. I have A-10off on a board of 3-9-K rainbow. Villain leads out for $15 (1/2 pot) and I pop it to $40. He re-raises to $80. The guy had about $150 behind and I thought I had a read on the guy that he would fold to a shove, so I put him all in. I sat silent and motionless as is my SOP. He agonizes for literally 5 minutes and then starts saying things like "I don't think I can fold now" and "I'm a donkey if I lay this down." Basically, he starts talking himself into calling. I really feel like he is about to make the call when I do something out of character for me: I look at him at calmly say "I got you and I'll show you." He lays it down and I show him the bluff. He goes apeshit. He tells me I am an unethical "dickwad" and that I am a disgrace to the game, etc... I did not respond, but simply sat and pondered to myself whether what I had done had crossed the line. Thus, my question to 2+2 - Am I an angleshooting douchebag who should apologize to the guy next time I see him at the table or is what I did part of the game and acceptable strategy in trying to entice a fold? Thanks for your input.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

That is not an angleshot. It is standard table chatter. People have posted scenarios where opponents would call after listening to you. Those opponents were not angleshooting when they started table chatter.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I guess this could be called disrespectful in a way. But not an angleshoot. I would never do it to a regular that I play with everyday.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

What angle shooot? The guy is a douche for flipping out on you for once. How about "Nice hand" and move on? And all you have to say is, " i really thought I had the best hand and you were on a draw" or "this is my first time" and leave it at that.

He has no right to flip out because he just got out played. You didn't talk about the hand or disclose the contents of your hand, nor did you do anything wrong.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

It's not nice and is a dick move, but its legal.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

If you had done your talk to get him to fold after calling you, then yes. But as discribed, no, I've got no problem with this.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

No.

Bluffing raising bets of $15 to $40 in live play probably isn't advisable.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

It's not an angleshoot but it's not hard to understand why this would upset somebody. That's one of the reasons I consistently keep my mouth shut when in this sort of situation.

~ Rick

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Entierly fine, I wouldn't even call it unethical or a dick move. That is the essence of poker, you just owned him. It seems like poker has almost become too friendly of a game where this is considered by some to be angleshooting. When your money is on the felt you are adversaries with everyone else at the table. The word angleshooting refers to catching a glimse of someone else's cards, thus taking away the key element of poker, incomplete information. What you did was beyond fine. nh

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

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Entierly fine, I wouldn't even call it unethical or a dick move.

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At most casinos I've played table talk and even showing one or two of your hole cards is allowed ONLY if it's headsup. There were only two of you in the pot at the time so no problem IMHO.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Nope.

Pretty standard table chatter I hear.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

This guy should apologize to you. You even showed him. WTF, he expects you not to lie about your hand?

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Yes. It is a move for cowards

5-10 NL Reno Peppermill
I had a similar situation where I was in a big pot with a guy that I have played a lot with, when he starts kicking me under the table and whispering for me to fold and that he had the nuts(yes, there is one other player in the pot) I fold my 2 pair which I was WAY good, other player folds a.s.s hole shows 72

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. It is a move for cowards

5-10 NL Reno Peppermill
I had a similar situation where I was in a big pot with a guy that I have played a lot with, when he starts kicking me under the table and whispering for me to fold and that he had the nuts(yes, there is one other player in the pot) I fold my 2 pair which I was WAY good, other player folds a.s.s hole shows 72

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. You got PWND!

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I have two simple words I like to use when someone tells me they'll show if I fold.

"I call."

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Nice hand.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Appreciate the input everyone. Although I do not plan on making a habit of using this tactic (for strategic more than etiquette reasons), ultimately I agree that poker is a game of psychological warfare and that what I did was not out of line. Probably best in the future, though, for me to stfu and just let the hand play out.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

lol, unless you guys are best friends, your line doesn't even make sense.

i've got you and i'll show...now does that look like somebody looking for a call?

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I don't understand what your opponent was thinking. If you really did have him beat, why would you tell him that truthfully? Either you were lying or you hate money. The last thing he should expect is that you were telling the truth but like money.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

FWIW, I mix up telling the truth and not telling the truth at the table. It really throws people off.

Just last session, after I made a PFR with QQ then b3bai a 10-high flop that contained a flush draw, my opponent asked me "You go an overpair?" I said "yes", he called, turn brought an ace, river completed the flush. I showed and he mucked without showing. He didn't even have a draw and I told him I had an overpair!

So yeah, unless its a tournament go ahead and tell the truth too if you want.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not an angleshoot but it's not hard to understand why this would upset somebody. That's one of the reasons I consistently keep my mouth shut when in this sort of situation.

~ Rick

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This basically nails it.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

this is completely standard. nh.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. It is a move for cowards

5-10 NL Reno Peppermill
I had a similar situation where I was in a big pot with a guy that I have played a lot with, when he starts kicking me under the table and whispering for me to fold and that he had the nuts(yes, there is one other player in the pot) I fold my 2 pair which I was WAY good, other player folds a.s.s hole shows 72

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. You got PWND!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I'm just laughing at how easily he believed you.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Incredible. What is the game coming to with p**sy incidents like this. Next, someone will be bitching that you bluffed them off a pot "that's not fair I want my mummy." And he's even got you self flagellating about how wicked you might have been. You can lie as much as you like before, during and after a hand, poker is a game of deception, that's the point. You could even have changed your mind about showing him, say "I'll tell you later" if your conscience is so pricked.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

One day a guy tells me "check it down?" Against my usual policy I said I would, only because it was more a drinking table than a make $ table and I didn't really care (plus I didn't have much). Check, check, check, check, check... He bets the river. Did he angle shoot me? Should I be pissed?

Bad karma comes back to haunt you, and I don't even believe in that kinda thing. But I did bust him heads up shortly after when I semi-bluffed the turn and caught a gutshot on the river.

Al

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

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I guess this could be called disrespectful in a way. But not an angleshoot. I would never do it to a regular that I play with everyday.

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Totally agree with this, especially the last sentence which I think you need to give more weight to if you will be playing live poker often. It's just bad for business.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I love that play. I won't usually show it or offer to show it, but there is no better bluff than the "we're buddies, I don't want to take all your money, I've got you" bluff.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

This is not an angleshoot by any stretch.

However, it does have a bit of an edge to it and I wouldn't do this to a donator, or a friend, or in a game that was light and fun.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

What made this nasty was that you used an offer that fishy players often make sincerely. Alot banter is clearly not meant to be taken seriously, the guy obviously thought you were trying to be nice, when you were actually still gaming him. While this is clearly legal and within the realm of conduct to be expected at the poker table, it's unpleasant in human terms. Other examples of similar situations could include personal insults designed to put someone on tilt or induce a call (I've seen people say stuff like "you better fold you cowardly piece of crap" when they want a call, comment on people's playing ability or personal attributes, including weight and race, to induce tilt). It could include scoping the card's of a neighbor who doesn't protect his/her hand well enough. It's all a matter of degree in many situations, and you'll have to decide how much you want to push them. I personally don't believe they give a significant lasting edge -- in fact I think they may be negative because they get you distracted and feeling negatively -- so I prefer to focus on getting an edge through my strategic knowledge and observation of players, and leave most of the coffeehousing an other antics to others.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

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And all you have to say is, " i really thought I had the best hand and you were on a draw"

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lol wtf? What draw was he possibly beating? A pair draw to an ace with worse kicker?

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

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lol, unless you guys are best friends, your line doesn't even make sense.

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Funny, sounds like the guy was going to call until then.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One day a guy tells me "check it down?" Against my usual policy I said I would, only because it was more a drinking table than a make $ table and I didn't really care (plus I didn't have much). Check, check, check, check, check... He bets the river. Did he angle shoot me? Should I be pissed?

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to what OP was talking about, that sounds downright illegal. Yes you should be pissed. In fact I wonder if his words were legally binding (I don't know, but I suspect they ought to be if not.)

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

i recall a dealer telling me you dont have to check down even after you agree with it.

wtf you can lie while playing poker?

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

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I love that play. I won't usually show it or offer to show it, but there is no better bluff than the "we're buddies, I don't want to take all your money, I've got you" bluff.

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I use this bluff in live play like 85% of my sessions. But I'm a social guy and talk a lot at tables, and people generally respect my game. I never show, but make it seem like its cuz I don't want the other players to know what I had. A good, old fashioned "C'MONNNNNNNNNNN" usually convinces them that I have them beat so I can take it down and muck. Never told them I got you beat and I'll show, though. Whatever, that's pokar!!

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I've enjoyed some of the thoughtful responses here. I personally think this is piece of crap move. At lower levels people are chatting and, although gambling for money, still have a sense of friendliness and comradery about them. You've betrayed this man's trust and created an unpleasant scene at the table for a couple of bucks. Was it worth it? At higher limits these kinds of moves don't make you a jerk because everyone is onto the many levels of the game.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

It's interesting to note that against good players, they would very much prefer you said something like this. Anyway they can extract some sort of information from you. They obviously would never be fooled by such a statement, but on the other hand they might pick up a tell from it. If they got pissed when they saw your hand, it would be completely feigned 99% of the time.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

Its kind of a dick move.. but not an angle shoot or unethical thing to say at all. It was pure table talk as you talked him out of the call. At least you showed him [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

I don't see any problem here, I put him on A-8 as well.

Re: Did I angleshoot this guy?
 

you did nothing wrong...the problem was all his. Bluffing and betting is just part of the game and if he got pushed off the best hand then he shouldn't get upset about it. Getting bluffed and getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar is just part of the game.