changed my mind 5/10
 

was gonna give up, but figure he can't call now, right? villian is 21/17 tag w/o much history (he probably views me as tag although i have been fairly active lately).

Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $1,354
UTG: $765.50
MP: $866
CO: $1,202
Hero (BTN): $1,035
SB: $1,132

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $35</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $120</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $85

Flop: ($255) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $200</font>, CO calls $200

Turn: ($655) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($655) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $715 and is All-In</font>

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

Wouldn't CO fold a pair more often on 4th street then 5th given the way the hand played out? Maybe if you were a bit deeper and put in a bet on the turn then your 3 barrel most likely won't get looked up light.

Let me ask you something...If you held AT/JJ are you betting the turn? If not are you calling a river shove?

The point of my ramble is that if there is a possibility that we are going to bluff shove this river, wouldn't we rather semi bluff shove the turn given our equity and general strength in line (which in turn creates additional equity in FE)?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

why not put it in on 4th instead of 5th?

are you leveling or something?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

if your image was good i would like it. when your image starts to turn bad these spots just become really really difficult to bluff.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

i would also shove turn 100% i think.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not put it in on 4th instead of 5th?

are you leveling or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking if I am leveling or agreeing with me and asking if OP is leveling?

Either way, I don't think anyone in this thread is leveling anything. Contribute or stay on the sidelines.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would also shove turn 100% i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think shoving the turn looks waaay more bluffy (big heart type hand) than shoving the river.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

yes but we dont need much fe.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would also shove turn 100% i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think shoving the turn looks waaay more bluffy (big heart type hand) than shoving the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

id also shove turn instead if was gonna do this on the river...

this might be true (more bluffy) but we obvi have more equity when called and i cant think of a real hand that plays like this except maybe a tricky flush or AhAx

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

easy question: do you shove AA on the turn or river?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

meh. i'd just give up. i like the turn check, though.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy question: do you shove AA on the turn or river?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, its not. ppl play really bad and u dont need to be perfectly balanced at 5/10. yes u shove AA on the turn bc it looks more 'bluffy' hence i dont mind checking turn here and bluffing river because it looks less so.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy question: do you shove AA on the turn or river?

[/ QUOTE ]

no heart turn, yes heart river.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not put it in on 4th instead of 5th?

are you leveling or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking if I am leveling or agreeing with me and asking if OP is leveling?

Either way, I don't think anyone in this thread is leveling anything. Contribute or stay on the sidelines.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't BBV, not everyone who uses the word level is trolling threads, stop being a douche bag and actually think about what i said:

I am asking OP whether he is trying to level the villain in the hand

OP might be trying to make villain believe he has a huge pair and is afraid of the flush on the turn, or make villain think that OP is checking behind a flush on the turn for deception. This is a level because in either case OP is thinking on the 2nd level and villian is on the 1st level usually in a 3 bet pot (hence the level) but i don't think this level works well, which is why i vote for shoving the turn instead

contributed enough?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy question: do you shove AA on the turn or river?

[/ QUOTE ]

no heart turn, yes heart river.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the level i am trying to state in my original post

is OP trying to make villain believe that OP think this?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

dchz,

STFU. I asked if you were leveling me or OP because obviously your post was ambiguous. And seeing as how I was the first to reply and I suggested betting the turn, it could easily be misconstrued to be a shot at me.

No this isn't BBV but yes their are many trolls within this forum as well. They usually show their face in the form of an over sized ego and one sentence flaming. So if I misunderstood your post, sorry but maybe it would be a clue for you to either type more or at the very least respond to the person you are directing your question at with his name at the heading. Then their won't be anymore misunderstandings. No need for the d-bag comment. Just makes you seem like one is all.

/hijack

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

preflop sucks big time. Id rather shove turn since u still have a ton of outs and it looks stronger. Also, ur not checking that turn with anything that beats Tx =p

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh. i'd just give up. i like the turn check, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely believe that if you played the exact opposite of how you posted your winrate would invert itself.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

Shove turn ppl will fold a lot more than you think and you pretty much always have 16 clean outs. As played your hand looks so FOS your getting looked by like any pair

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

animus, enough with the italics, im gunna have to ignore ur posts

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop sucks big time. Id rather shove turn since u still have a ton of outs and it looks stronger. Also, ur not checking that turn with anything that beats Tx =p

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh - i'm quite sure 3-betting A-8o pf is not his standard. But to stay it sucks is pretty silly - particularly if you have a good read on villain and you are in position.

Also, Matthew, i'm curious why you say that OP would never check back something that beats Tx. Do you never look to trap w/ a big pair by checking back a turn?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

the river shove is so much more stronger than a turn shove esp given what the turn card was.

If villain is decent then i quite like it. If hes bad then hes just not folding.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
the river shove is so much more stronger than a turn shove esp given what the turn card was.

If villain is decent then i quite like it. If hes bad or really good then hes just not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

i dont think calling 66 vs kratzer on the river is particularly good.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

bet turn

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
animus, enough with the italics, im gunna have to ignore ur posts

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

tthis is usually pretty bad

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

i'd always shove turn but i actually kind of like the river bluff

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop sucks big time. Id rather shove turn since u still have a ton of outs and it looks stronger. Also, ur not checking that turn with anything that beats Tx =p

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh - i'm quite sure 3-betting A-8o pf is not his standard. But to stay it sucks is pretty silly - particularly if you have a good read on villain and you are in position.

Also, Matthew, i'm curious why you say that OP would never check back something that beats Tx. Do you never look to trap w/ a big pair by checking back a turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

regardless of his read, A8o should goto themuch here always.

as for ur other questions: first of all, i dont do anything always or never when it comes to postflop. However, on this board I would v rarely check back JJ or better because betting the turn is &gt; ev then check turn + bet river; and inline with my overall game, ANdddd i think it has more FE (altought that depends i suppose).

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

i dont really think this was even touched on, but im not a big fan of rr weak aces PF. Its just a recipe for disaster. I'd much rather a hand like 58s or other trash.


...unless you know this villain well enough that you can put him on such a good range that your cards dont actually matter - you know, like in rounders.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

lol, it turns out someone did say that, i just dont skim very well.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

Fold pre. Riv shove is horrible- don't see what you're repping on the riv. If you had anything I don't see why you'd check behind turn.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

very interesting sir. i think its easier to balance your range on the turn by shoving with all kinds of hands, but i agree he'll have to make a light call down here. its basically whether or not you think he's capable of doing so.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
meh. i'd just give up. i like the turn check, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely believe that if you played the exact opposite of how you posted your winrate would invert itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
and why would i want it to do that?

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
meh. i'd just give up. i like the turn check, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely believe that if you played the exact opposite of how you posted your winrate would invert itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
and why would i want it to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I laugh when ppl say [censored] like that because TWP is one of the best msnl players

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
meh. i'd just give up. i like the turn check, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely believe that if you played the exact opposite of how you posted your winrate would invert itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
and why would i want it to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I laugh when ppl say [censored] like that because TWP is one of the best msnl players

[/ QUOTE ]

top 5 i believe

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

I REALLY like a turn shove here. You know he prolly doesn't have the flush, and villain knows this too. Therefore you most likely shove here with a big pair/set/the flush. So I think it's a shove, since he can put you on all these strong hands.

As played, I'd check it down actually, and not 3-bet pre w/ A8. R

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

I hate the flop bet. Both the size and the actual bet.

Re: changed my mind 5/10
 

I think turn shove is better then river shove.
But I think if u have a good amount of respect and arent bluffy this river is alright as it doesnt look like a credible opportunity to rep a hand.