NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

I 4betted small against this guy earlyer and he folded. He seems like an average TAG, and have 3betted about 3 times in 100 hands.


Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $95.61
Hero (MP): $249.82
CO: $208.20
BTN: $29.98
SB: $97.50
BB: $100

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG calls $1, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $15</font>, 2 folds


Should I call this?
If not, how big should the stacksizes be to make a call profitable?
Which holecards could I call with here?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

He is 3-betting light. This means you do not have implied odds and there is no mining to be done. Call and be willing to do more than set mine with your hand, or fold.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

You're in position, see a flop. The best way to punish a light 3 betting TAG is calling with position, because being out of position sucks. Call in position, and play the following hands exactly the same by shoving the flop if it isn't an overbet, or raising their cbet large: Sets, over pairs, most higher TPTK (not a TP of 5's), combo draws (including things like 1 over + flush draw or straight draw, some pairs + gs, etc), two pair. Basically, you are looking to get it in with a range of hands that make it unprofitable to call with a top pair, but will still have high equity versus his calling range.

At least, I believe that is the current standard for dealing with people who 3bet light, but I'm new to this so correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Yeah I don't mind calling but I do mind setmining as you don't have the odds. But there are other ways to win the pot.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

How often do you call and "do more than set mine with your hand" here?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
How often do you call and "do more than set mine with your hand" here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on how often he 3 bets, how recently he has 3 bet, how positionally aware he is, how in love he gets with top pair, how much fold equity I'll have, whether he is a thinking playing... Basically, too many things to consider. But if he is either a tight post flop player who plays fit or fold or a very loose fish who will stack off light, I'm calling a lot of reraises with position, especially if I have been raising a lot preflop.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
He is 3-betting light. This means you do not have implied odds and there is no mining to be done. Call and be willing to do more than set mine with your hand, or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

He 3bet you 3 times in 100 hands?I don't think this is light.
You are UTG+1 so if you say he is some kind of TAG I don't think he is going to have a weak hand here often.

I'll just fold and wait for a better spot.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

3 times in 100 is a lot. I'll call most of the time and 4-bet once in a blue moon.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 times in 100 is a lot. I'll call most of the time and 4-bet once in a blue moon.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 times in 100 is in no way a lot.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

in 100 hands, hero prolly only opened 20ish. so 3 3bets is a relatively high frequency.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

But we are opening up from MP not a good steal pos like CO or BTN.Don't you think he has a legit hand for doing this ?

I mean HERO just 4bet him few hands back and he said he was a TAG ... so would a TAG 3bet light again here or wait for a decent hand?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
in 100 hands, hero prolly only opened 20ish. so 3 3bets is a relatively high frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt take his read to mean that he had 3 bet OP 3 times in the last 100 hands, just that he had 3 bet a total of 3 times in the last 100.


Guess it doesnt really matter anyway, as its a conceptual question.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

I'd fold otherwise you will probably end up doing something rash. He's oop which makes it more unlikely he's doing this light imo, and there really aren't many good flops for 66.

If it continues you can always move tables.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Fold. In no way is setmining close here.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

how big would effective stacks have to be to make the $10 call?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Like 120bbs

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

i fold coz we can't setmine and i'm not thrilled about playing it for pair value

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

yeah easy fold

you really can't do more than setmine postflop because the only other thing you can do is pure bluffing in a 3bet pot where villain will stack off light

87s is an easy call here imho, 66 isn't, because with 87s you can flop a pair and shove over his cbet on a lot of flops and have 25% equity when called instead of 10%


for all of those saying 'call and do more than setmine':

barrin posted a thread like a week ago where he bluffshoved 88 over a light 3better's cbet on a Q73r flop or something ... we did the math and villain has to fold like 60% of the time to make the bluff correct ... making the bluff in itself kinda marginal, not to mention not good enough to make up for all the preflop calls, Q73r is like the best flop you can get too

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

meh, if you four bet him within the last 100 hands he's less likely to be three betting you light here so I fold.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
i fold coz we can't setmine and i'm not thrilled about playing it for pair value

[/ QUOTE ]

also, these aren't our only two options/reasons for calling vs a light three bettor.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

More detailed info about the hand:
About everyone around the table is average TAGs except one fishy type who sits to villains left. The TAGs have seemed to steal normaly often. I've seen him played 100 hands, and he have 3betted 3 times totally (not only against me) those hands. I've played pretty straight forward 18/15, but maybe a bit lesser weak than the average. I have made 2-3 3bets earlier this session. I've not become caught bluffing or playing "spewy" earlier this hand.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Continued from the poll over:

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Please remember that he doesn't exactly have to stack off with AA even if the stacks are 200bb. And you will stack off when you have a set and he has, too. While this is very rare, it has a huge impact on ev.

And I do agree that for making plays 87s is a better hand.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Would you all call preflop to raise his cbet with a SC rather than a small pp?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

If you pair with a SC and he has smth like AA or TP then you have more outs, with 66 you have 2 outs.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

The alternatives in the poll pretty much suck. The correct % in both questions is definately 0-33%.

I wouldn't call preflop unless we're 150bb deep, and even that might not be enough depending on villain. I'd guess 150ish is ok though, 120bb is not.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Nick Royale: Which hands would you call with?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

In that poll I play TT+. Generally calling QQ-TT and re-raising with AA/KK, but mixing in calling with AA/KK.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

Ok. Would you call with other hands than in the poll?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 times in 100 is a lot. I'll call most of the time and 4-bet once in a blue moon.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 times in 100 is in no way a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 times in a hundred could be either. He might have the goods, he might not. I wouldn't be jumping to the conclusion that he's doing this light, but i would be watching. You've looked up to see AA on 2 of your 8 tables at the same time before, right?

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Would you call with other hands than in the poll?

[/ QUOTE ]
I rr and felt AK. Other than that I fold the rest, don't think we need to get more fancy than that vs a "average tag" in 100nl. If I start to suspect he 3-bets light in these spots I widen my range.

Re: NL100: Setmining against a TAG who 3bets my preflopraise
 

66 is in the top 24% of hands, therefore a call is not too bad, but he is probably only raising top 15% up, a fold is also good