Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

One obvious question that has always bothered me is, why do assists count the same as a goal scored? And most of all, why do second assists count as much as a goal?

A defenseman could pass the puck up to a team-mate on the defensive blue line, watch while he skates through half the opposing team, before he passes the center who slap shots an uncatchable puck in the upper corner, and be awarded the same number of points as the other two guys.

Isn't this absurd?

Has there ever been discussions on awarding diffent points to these? Like a 3-2-1 point system or something?

Also, why do NHL (It's the same in Europe, but NHL is bigger - so let's focus there) usually only count a player's scoring history in the regular season when tallying a player's career totals?

Like, when I look up Teemu Selänne, I will often find these career totals:

1041 540 505 1135

But, his play-off stats aren't included, they are as follows:

86 29 33 62

Now, it's fairly obvious that almost any play-off game is more important than any regular season game, so why is this?

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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Now, it's fairly obvious that almost any play-off game is more important than any regular season game, so why is this?


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The same reason the stats are kept separate in every sport?

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Does this really bother you that much?

I really don't have a problem with goals and 2nd-assists being equal in terms of points. If they change it to a 3-2-1 system, it might cause some players to pass less (and go for goals more) which would ruin the game imo.

EDIT: I mean everyone already knows that player A with 40 goals and 25 assists is more valuable than player B with 25 goals and 40 assists. So, not a big deal.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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Does this really bother you that much?

I really don't have a problem with goals and 2nd-assists being equal in terms of points. If they change it to a 3-2-1 system, it might cause some players to pass less (and go for goals more) which would ruin the game imo.

EDIT: I mean everyone already knows that player A with 40 goals and 25 assists is more valuable than player B with 25 goals and 40 assists. So, not a big deal.

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Any player who would change the way he plays because of a change in the way stats are kept is a player I don't want on my team.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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Now, it's fairly obvious that almost any play-off game is more important than any regular season game, so why is this?


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The same reason the stats are kept separate in every sport?

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I have no idea how stats are being kept in other American sports, nor do I care.

As for hockey, though, why?

I realize stats and records etc aren't THAT important, and that people in fact do realize that 40+25 is way more valuable than 25+40, but it just bugs me that for instance there was all this attention last year, when Mats Sundin scored his 500th career goal.
Oh, did he? If you include play-offs, he did this two seasons before, I believe.

Just an example.

No biggie, it just always struck me as weird.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Does this really bother you that much?

I really don't have a problem with goals and 2nd-assists being equal in terms of points. If they change it to a 3-2-1 system, it might cause some players to pass less (and go for goals more) which would ruin the game imo.

EDIT: I mean everyone already knows that player A with 40 goals and 25 assists is more valuable than player B with 25 goals and 40 assists. So, not a big deal.

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Any player who would change the way he plays because of a change in the way stats are kept is a player I don't want on my team.

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No sheet. That has aboslutely nothing to do with what I said, though.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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Now, it's fairly obvious that almost any play-off game is more important than any regular season game, so why is this?


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The same reason the stats are kept separate in every sport?

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I have no idea how stats are being kept in other American sports, nor do I care.

As for hockey, though, why?

I realize stats and records etc aren't THAT important, and that people in fact do realize that 40+25 is way more valuable than 25+40, but it just bugs me that for instance there was all this attention last year, when Mats Sundin scored his 500th career goal.
Oh, did he? If you include play-offs, he did this two seasons before, I believe.

Just an example.

No biggie, it just always struck me as weird.

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Playoff games are more important and generally harder to get points in (tougher competition). Yet you want to mix points in the playoffs in with points from the regular season thereby diminishing the perceived value of playoff points. That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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Now, it's fairly obvious that almost any play-off game is more important than any regular season game, so why is this?


[/ QUOTE ]

The same reason the stats are kept separate in every sport?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how stats are being kept in other American sports, nor do I care.

As for hockey, though, why?

I realize stats and records etc aren't THAT important, and that people in fact do realize that 40+25 is way more valuable than 25+40, but it just bugs me that for instance there was all this attention last year, when Mats Sundin scored his 500th career goal.
Oh, did he? If you include play-offs, he did this two seasons before, I believe.

Just an example.

No biggie, it just always struck me as weird.

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Pete Rose broke the all-time hits record well before he was given credit for it because of all the post-season hits that weren't included.

Roger Clemens really recorded his 300th win before he was given credit for it but his playoff wins weren't counted.

Brett Favre had actually recorded his 400th TD much earlier too but those pesky playoff wins didn't count.


This is how it works in all sports.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Don't get too bent out of shape [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], most traditional hockey stats aren't terribly meaningful for judging true performance anyway. Wrt points - while a different weight for goals and assists would perhaps be better, it still wouldn't nearly tell the whole story.

For example, Jaromir Jagr had 30 goals and 66 assists for 96 points last season, while Zack Parise had 31 goals and 31 assists for 62 points. Even if we weighted the goals and assists differently, Jagr would have more points. However, that doesn't necessarily mean Jagr was a better offensive player than Parise. What those numbers fail to take into account is OPPORTUNITY (and quality of opportunity). Jagr played ~350 more minutes than Parise, including 220 more PP minutes. The goal environment - and therefore a player's goal "expectation" - is very different during PP time compared to ES. In other words, Jagr should've scored more, relative to his opportunity.

I highly recommend checking out this site for detailed NHL statistical research. Ryder is awesome and groundbreaking. Also, for year to date "advanced" stats, check out this site.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

I just want to know how 540 + 505 = 1135.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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most traditional hockey stats aren't terribly meaningful for judging true performance anyway

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just thinking about it some more....isn't this kind of the same as counting all hits in baseball the same.

Ichiro got 250 hits and Barry got only 150 hits. But 50 of Barry's hits were HR's and they should be counted as 4 hits each!

They already have seperate stats for most goals and most assts. So keeping a stat for most total points where G's and A's are all counted the same doesn't seem like a big deal. It's mostly just a measure of "how many goal-scoring plays have you been a part of."

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does this really bother you that much?

I really don't have a problem with goals and 2nd-assists being equal in terms of points. If they change it to a 3-2-1 system, it might cause some players to pass less (and go for goals more) which would ruin the game imo.

EDIT: I mean everyone already knows that player A with 40 goals and 25 assists is more valuable than player B with 25 goals and 40 assists. So, not a big deal.

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Any player who would change the way he plays because of a change in the way stats are kept is a player I don't want on my team.

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No sheet. That has aboslutely nothing to do with what I said, though.

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You suggested that if they changed to a 3-2-1 system, player's might pass less. I am saying that any player who would do this is not someone I want on my team.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

A 3,2,1 system is just as abitrary. They should probably separate into
Goals, First assists, second assists and do some sort of analysis regarding that.
BTW thanks Sunny for linking those two websites.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

I honestly can't see players somehow passing less if they changed some random stat.
That's incredibly ridiculous imo,

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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I honestly can't see players somehow passing less if they changed some random stat.
That's incredibly ridiculous imo,

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Ya. I agree with this as well, especially since hockey is such a fluid game.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

The fact is, regardless of the scoring players already LOVE to score goals.
getting a ton of assists is 'nice' but being the guy who actually lit the lamp is where the adreniline is and where the rush comes from.

A 4 asst game earns you some awesome pats on the back. "Hey guy...great game. You really set up everybody well."
A 2 goal game is high-fives all-around.
Everybody celebrates and looks at the goals as 'team' efforts but it's the guy who actually scored it who is feeling the biggest high.

So to that end there is already the emphasis and reward for putting it in the net even if it isn't reflected in the stat for 'points'.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Just because goals and assists count as equal value on most newspaper and website leader sheets, doesn't mean that you have to consider them as having the same value.

I think most pools value goals higher.

In the end, I guess it really doesn't matter much.

If we are talking about "valuing" players, I'd like to see (and I'm to lazy to look) a +/- tally that was adjusted for team overall performance, yet this still would not take-in a player's special teams (Powerplay and penalty kill) performamce, so that too would be limiting.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Thanks guys, lots of reasonable input here.

re SBR: Yeah, I see your point. But to me it just seems like play-off stats are almost neglected altogether, and often not mentioned at all.

re Pudge: Yup, it's just as arbitrary - and nothing I really have thought too much about.
But whatever the numbers might be, 3-2-1, pi-e-1, whatever, I think it would better reflect the importance of the performance.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

If you do the 3-2-1 system, are open net goals still worth 3 points?

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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But 50 of Barry's hits were HR's and they should be counted as 4 hits each!

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but that's why there's a slugging stat. i doubt hockey would have a comparable stat, but i'm not all that knowledgeable about hockey. as far as jagr having more opportunities, shouldn't the +/- statistic account for this to some degree? yes he's on the ice more, but he's also going to be on the ice when the other team scores.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Baseball also keeps seperate track of who has the most HR's just like hockey seperately keeps track of who scores the most goals.

Points is not the only stat they have in hockey and hits is not the only stat they have in baseball.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

yeah, i was just saying that i didn't think hits to goals was a good analogy.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

I really don't care for them to go to a 3-2-1 type system. Hockey already went to that messed up point system where you have separate points for

Regulation wins, regulation losses, overtime ties, overtime losses, overtime wins, and all that nonsense.

Back in my day you either won or lost. Bam. That's it, baby.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

yeah, because appeal to tradition is a reasonable attitude to have

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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But whatever the numbers might be, 3-2-1, pi-e-1, whatever, I think it would better reflect the importance of the performance.

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I support this.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

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that's a decent point.
Remember sitting up there in the press-box in college hockey and watching some replay where the puck barely changed direction after glancing off some guy who was oblivious there was even a shot coming.
"Correction. The goal will be credited to the totally oblivious guy instead. The guy who blasted that rocket from the point will instead get an assist."

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

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Well Tracy McGrady got credit for a goal the other night on a ball that Luke Walton accidentally knocked back into his own basket. Because T-Mac was the closest player to the ball. lol.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

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Well Tracy McGrady got credit for a goal the other night on a ball that Luke Walton accidentally knocked back into his own basket. Because T-Mac was the closest player to the ball. lol.

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Random question about this btw.....

I suppose that he also got a FG attempt and a FG made for this, correct? Well if the same thing had happened but the ball hit the rim and bounced out, would he have gotten charged with a missed shot?

102,111 and counting

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Tracy McGrady got credit for a goal the other night on a ball that Luke Walton accidentally knocked back into his own basket. Because T-Mac was the closest player to the ball. lol.

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Random question about this btw.....

I suppose that he also got a FG attempt and a FG made for this, correct? Well if the same thing had happened but the ball hit the rim and bounced out, would he have gotten charged with a missed shot?

102,111 and counting

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im going to say no he won't get charged.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Goals should be weighted more than assists - but not always. Assists are more common than goals ldo.

It should just make intuitive sense to anyone who watches or follows hockey. Especially not important are most defenseman's assists, which are often standard passes either on a power play or up ice.

Some league used to only award a single assist on a goal - this seems to make more sense to me. Gretzky was a master of the secondary assist at the end of his career, but he wasn't a +EV player the last year of his career as a result of his goal/assist discrepancy.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

btw sunny that link is [censored] incredible

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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I always thought that the "if the puck deflects off of you accidentally, you get the goal for it" was the most stupid thing in the world

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It's not as stupid as three fielders converging on a shallow fly, and when it falls in the batter gets a hit and nobody gets an error.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

You're forgetting the times, when a player dances around everyone and then feeds another player for an easy tap in at the side of the net. Or when he takes the initial shot and someone pops in a rebound. Also what you guys are missing is dmen who move the puck really well and are good at breakout passes would not get the recognition or credit they deserve. The point system is fine the way it is. As someone had previously mentioned changing the way points are awarded would definitely cause players to pass less, so their stats are bigger and they get bigger contracts.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

" changing the way points are awarded would definitely cause players to pass less"


No way.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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" changing the way points are awarded would definitely cause players to pass less"


No way.

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Guaranteed. I've talked to an ex NHLer who was played for the Flames when they were terrible and he said that players would go for goals to try to get a bigger contract, since that's what they would show on the highlight reels. Obviously on a winning team, it wouldn't be impacted as much, but there are lots of players in the league who are just looking to get the biggest contract they can get. Changing the scoring would only exacerbate this situation.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

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You're forgetting the times, when a player dances around everyone and then feeds another player for an easy tap in at the side of the net. Or when he takes the initial shot and someone pops in a rebound. Also what you guys are missing is dmen who move the puck really well and are good at breakout passes would not get the recognition or credit they deserve. The point system is fine the way it is. As someone had previously mentioned changing the way points are awarded would definitely cause players to pass less, so their stats are bigger and they get bigger contracts.

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Yads has made an incredible cross-ice feed to the correct for an easy tap-in!

There's just too many cases where the guy credited with the first or second assist did the majority of the work such that the point system is the best the way it is currently.

Re: Regarding players\' point scoring in Hockey
 

Since they already show the goals on the highlight reels and get a little selfish wanting the glory of the goals in today's game even with assists counting the same in terms of total points then I don't think changing the scoring system is going to be that much more incentive to pass even less.

Players like scoring goals already.

You could change the scoring the other way and count assists as 3 points and goals as 1 point and say that it's an emphasis on setting up your teammates or something....and the players still wouldn't care. They would still want to be the guy to light the red lamp.