hand
 

commerce 100/200
CO is an expert who typically plays the biggest game going. He knows me and I know him.
SB is a blowhard who sucks.

CO opens, I 3bet A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, SB coldcalls, CO calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB donks, CO raises, I 3bet, SB calls, CO calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, CO checks, I bet, SB check/raises, CO calls 2 cold, I 3bet, SB tanks and now folds and says "Dealer, I want to see those two hands after the river", CO calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
CO bets, I call. meh?

Re: hand
 

yeah

so,what was the question?

Re: hand
 

played well....depending on who the CO is I could make a case for raising river since he can donk a lot of hands thinking you cant raise since flush got there and you cant have a flush.....all depends if CO raises flush draw on flop, if he is good I would think only the K high. If you raise for value you can safely fold to the 3 bet, calling is fine too.

Re: hand
 

This is such a weird river donk from CO. First, he should expect you to valuebet almost all of your holdings (so why not checkraise), second he should expect you to fold none of them to this donk(so he has no bluffing equity). Third, he shouldn't expect you to raise very often at all(so he almost never gets to bet 3bet).

I'd just call anyway though.

Re: hand
 

The more I think about this hand the more I think raising is incorrect as if he is a good player he will prob fold AQ or worse so you prob only get paid off by A6 and he prob doesnt have A6 and if he did he may not even pay you off......calling seems to be the only option.

Re: hand
 

IMO raising here is not a good play. I do think he will donk the flush here rather than c/r since there is not much else he can have here. I really doubt he would decide to value bet two pair under the protection of the flush card, I would think he would more likely be praying that the flush card would make you check behind (since he would be crying rather hard having to call a river bet).

Re: hand
 

I'm trying to figure out what flush draw he'd raise on the flop given we have the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Nothing really makes sense for CO to have here IMO so I play it the same.

-DeathDonkey

Re: hand
 

Raise and snap fold to a 3 bet to spite SB is the play. The other positive is CO may fold to your raise and you spite him that way.

Re: hand
 

If this is the hand I sweated you (I doubt it is?) than the board or your hole cards is wrong.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

Raise and snap fold to a 3 bet to spite SB is the play.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out what flush draw he'd raise on the flop given we have the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Nothing really makes sense for CO to have here IMO so I play it the same.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just call river, QcTc or JcTc would make sense for the CO.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise and snap fold to a 3 bet to spite SB is the play. The other positive is CO may fold to your raise and you spite him that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha this is awesome but CO always has a flush so it's kind of burning money. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out what flush draw he'd raise on the flop given we have the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Nothing really makes sense for CO to have here IMO so I play it the same.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just call river, QcTc or JcTc would make sense for the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that's not a great flop play with those hands...I'm happy to be convinced otherwise but with no showdown value and a SB calling 3 cold before the flop and now betting, I don't see why we'd want to get heads up or have the button 3 bet and possibly drive out the SB.

-DeathDonkey

Re: hand
 

if im co there is only one hand i can have here and its a set of 9s.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
if im co there is only one hand i can have here and its a set of 9s.

[/ QUOTE ]

No 3-bet on turn? Why bet the river?

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if im co there is only one hand i can have here and its a set of 9s.

[/ QUOTE ]

No 3-bet on turn? Why bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

keep bob in with one pair aces on turn.

not sure about river, but co hand can certainly look like a flush draw so mebbe he figures pbob might not vbet ak and pbob cant raise with aa/kk, so hes ensuring one bet goes in when hes proly greater than 50% and wont fear a raise.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out what flush draw he'd raise on the flop given we have the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Nothing really makes sense for CO to have here IMO so I play it the same.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] seems like about it and I agree that the flop play might not be optimal always but there are certainly spots where it's a fine line.

Rob

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the hand I sweated you (I doubt it is?) than the board or your hole cards is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not.

Re: hand
 

I have to put him on the K flush. I think its rather obvious by the raise on the flop and the calls on the turn, though you cannot fold for one bet so I do not see a mistake in your playing. just unlucky

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have to put him on the K flush. I think its rather obvious by the raise on the flop and the calls on the turn, though you cannot fold for one bet so I do not see a mistake in your playing. just unlucky

[/ QUOTE ]


i have the Kc.

Re: hand
 

pbob, this hand really isnt hard to play. you call the river. simple.

the hand is still interesting tho, bc im very curious what co had.

Re: hand
 

I agree with Victor on everything especially that only a set of 9s makes sense.

-DeathDonkey

Re: hand
 

I still don't see why QcJc is out of question...

PM me results please.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't see why QcJc is out of question...

[/ QUOTE ]
the flop action. there isn't much good that comes out of raising that hand on the flop unless SB is donking non-showdownable hands really. i still agree that he will show up with this and other flush draws quite a bit though.

Re: hand
 

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Victor on everything especially that only a set of 9s makes sense.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that was also the hand (99) that came to mind at first about this hand. It's the only one that makes any overly good sense imo.

Re: hand
 

I don't understand how people are so quick to dismiss the flush draw. Obviously there is a lot of sense to just calling the flop with the club draw. But an expert player would also know that he has a lot of equity with a flop raise (especially if he has a gutshot draw), and he gets two benefits from raising: (1) deception which may induce a bad play on a later street, (2) some information about hand strength which will help if he makes his flush on a paired board. It's also possible CO had a read that he could profitably try to push SB off his hand in certain spots.

The river play with a flush is unusual because a check/raise would seem natural, but he might have felt that either PB was likely to check behind this river as his turn cold-calls gave away his flush draw, or he might have felt PB might raise a set on the river if bet into.

So I agree that there should be some discounting of the flush draw because of the way hand was played, but I would still make it the most likely hand.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how people are so quick to dismiss the flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

I discount it because he had the chance to cap with it 3-ways on the flop and didn't.

Re: hand
 

Wouldn't he 4-bet the turn with a set of 9s? Or, differently put, is it more likely he just called the 3-bet with a flush draw on the flop or just called the 3-bet with aset on the turn?

And, either way, do you think Bob is so clearly beat here that he should fold?

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he 4-bet the turn with a set of 9s? Or, differently put, is it more likely he just called the 3-bet with a flush draw on the flop or just called the 3-bet with aset on the turn?

And, either way, do you think Bob is so clearly beat here that he should fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Bob is ahead. The question is if he shoudl raise. I lean towards no, but not sure.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he 4-bet the turn with a set of 9s? Or, differently put, is it more likely he just called the 3-bet with a flush draw on the flop or just called the 3-bet with aset on the turn?


And, either way, do you think Bob is so clearly beat here that he should fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Little real value in raising. Probably doesn't get called with lesser hand. No chance that he should fold, given the read. I hope Bob wins. More monies to be available at Canterbury.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he 4-bet the turn with a set of 9s? Or, differently put, is it more likely he just called the 3-bet with a flush draw on the flop or just called the 3-bet with aset on the turn?

And, either way, do you think Bob is so clearly beat here that he should fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Bob is ahead. The question is if he shoudl raise. I lean towards no, but not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does look an awful lot like AQ. Raising is almost certainly right.

That said, at the table I would have just called because I would probably have not thought it through as well as I can away from the heat of battle.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he 4-bet the turn with a set of 9s? Or, differently put, is it more likely he just called the 3-bet with a flush draw on the flop or just called the 3-bet with aset on the turn?

And, either way, do you think Bob is so clearly beat here that he should fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Bob is ahead. The question is if he shoudl raise. I lean towards no, but not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does look an awful lot like AQ. Raising is almost certainly right.


[/ QUOTE ]

there are only 4 hands he can have here, and AQ is not one of them.

Re: hand
 

I think people who are giving CO AQ or A6 have lost their minds. Either that, or he's definitely no expert. I think he has 99 or a flush. Either way, you're beat. I still think you should make a crying call however. The negatives far outweigh the benefits of folding this big of a pot for 1 bet.

Re: hand
 

Another AK is also a possibility.

I also agree thinking CO could have AQ is insane.

Re: hand
 

I dont get it? He isn't bet calling worse hand unless he is marginal at best, so even if he's donking worse thinking you wont raise b/c of the flush, i dont see the value in a raise. I mean i personally think you lose here more often than not and def would not want to raise the river here at all. He prolly caps AK preflop, your played your hand like the nuts, and now he is donking. If he is in fact an expert, he realizes that he can fold all hands worse than AK if you fire the river AND that the pot is so big that you won't fold a single one of the hands you have repped thus far to a donk. So call the river.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another AK is also a possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is so big that you won't fold a single one of the hands you have repped thus far to a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

The longer this thread goes, and the more sensible comments like this one that are posted, the more I want to cry, knowing the results.

Re: hand
 

so pbob folded? puke.

Re: hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
so pbob folded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I didn't say that.

By the way, Victor I think you summed up this thread way back when you wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
pbob, this hand really isnt hard to play. you call the river. simple.

the hand is still interesting tho, bc im very curious what co had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every word of that is an 'amen.'

OK, I'm going back to my micro games.