I feel like a sucker
 

Villain is Roman. 5 handed 40. Last time he checked behind on a 9TJ flop after being pfr and I called in BB. I bet the J turn and 4 river with 22 and won. This board is obviously a lot different though. I have c/r him on the flop pretty often and he's folded a lot, I 3 barreled him with some random rags once though.

So Roman raises in CO, I call in BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check/check

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet he raises. Just call and c/f river I think?

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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I feel like a sucker

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Why? You are forcing him to balance his play with a few flop check behinds. You get free cards and chances to win pots. This is a good result from your frequent aggression and flop checkraising. You have a lot of outs. Call, make a hand and profit.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

I'd call the river UI, so maybe I'm the sucker.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

I should know he would never check behind anything I'm ahead of on this flop.

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I'd call the river UI, so maybe I'm the sucker.

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I did.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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should know he would never check behind anything I'm ahead of on this flop.

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I think you are way wrong here if he is good and experienced at HU play. I don't know if that is the case though. The expert HU guys will balance their play well and sometimes make check behinds with showdownable but not great as well as some big hands. This is even more common on boards that are likely checkraised such as 3 babies or one overcard. You have shown him you will press hard when he shows weakness and if he is smart (which I think he is but again don't know for sure) he will find spots to give you a little rope.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

check turn. he has already shown he is never folding, and you're gonna have to barrel the river too.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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check turn. he has already shown he is never folding, and you're gonna have to barrel the river too.

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Results oriented? We have 15 outs and/or the best hand. I'd 3 bet turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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check turn. he has already shown he is never folding, and you're gonna have to barrel the river too.

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Results oriented? We have 15 outs and/or the best hand. I'd 3 bet turn.

-DeathDonkey

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i just see no point in putting myself in a spot where i have to call a raise in this tiny pot.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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check turn. he has already shown he is never folding, and you're gonna have to barrel the river too.

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Results oriented? We have 15 outs and/or the best hand. I'd 3 bet turn.

-DeathDonkey

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Unless he'll never bluff or bluffraise the turn way too often after checking the flop with air, it seems like check-calling is going to be a lot better than betting hoping to get a bet-3bet bluff in.

Rob

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

i initially was typing 3-bet due to outs/best hand potential, but i definitely do not think we win this hand w/o showdown... villain cannot expect hero to fold anything w/ showdown value given his line... i see this line somewhat often as well because i enjoy the occassional c/r myself... in my experiences this line has almost always been a very weak hand villain has decided is better than ours and wants to put us in our place but will check behind on the river, OR a rebluff which the villain intended to do when he checked behind on the flop... i think if villain checks river we loose and if villain bets we win enough to make a call profitable

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

Decent spot to try the "he knows, I know he will never fold" 3-bet bluff. You'll get there a lot anyway and gain teh meta effects without costing you much.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

I don't really get the flop peel. It's a tiny pot and you've got some crappy backdoor draws and reverse implied odds. I'd much rather check/fold this most of the time and sometimes check/raise (like I would with Qx and 7x hands). This is a decent board to check/raise because there are no draws so "obviously" you have one pair here.

After the flop peel, I really don't get the bet/call turn line. Are we trying to get him to fold a better Ax hand? Trying to get him to fold a worse hand that probably has four outs? Are we trying to represent a hand, or just betting because we picked outs? I think check/calling this turn is the way to go absent a read that some other line is better. I think bet/calling and bet/3betting generally suck here.

After check/calling the turn, I'd play poker on the river if I don't improve. I'd tend to check/fold unless it's someone who frequently three barrels with air.

I really think spots like these are ones where a very small number of players squeeze some EV out of, but most players end up losing money on. And I know we all fancy ourselves among or soon to join that elite group of excellent players, but really if you like money, sometimes you should take the easier route and avoid putting in lots of bets with a crap hand.*

* Obviously, the tougher the games are, the more you have to be willing to play some tough spots to make your play not completely transparent to other good players. But the money in mid-stakes games comes from the fact that most players are not very tough and they don't adjust to your play very well.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

Flop peel?

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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I don't really get the flop peel. It's a tiny pot and you've got some crappy backdoor draws and reverse implied odds. I'd much rather check/fold this most of the time and sometimes check/raise

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imo odds are too good to fold imo

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

Sorry, I misread the flop as a check/call. So basically ignore everything I wrote, sorry.

I still think turn check/fold is best because he's not folding anything better and he's not calling with much worse. Give him a chance to bluff his worse hands. Then evaluate the river, being more inclined to check/call since I expect him to check behind most A highs.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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Flop peel?

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I think he is confused as am I, as to how villain could check behind on this flop. You have played with this guy alot, no? what does this typically mean?

Ok nevermind didnt read whole post.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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Sorry, I misread the flop as a check/call. So basically ignore everything I wrote, sorry.

I still think turn check/fold is best because he's not folding anything better and he's not calling with much worse. Give him a chance to bluff his worse hands. Then evaluate the river, being more inclined to check/call since I expect him to check behind most A highs.

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sweetjazz,
did you misread the board too? imo this is a pretty easy c/c on the turn since he obv likes to showdown a ton vs. you.

Also, could be wrong but i don't think great HU players chk behind the flop all that often. Some players will do it on drawy boards with small pairs, A-hi, and occasionally K-hi but they almost always intend to SD cheap.

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

Whoops in my correction, I meant to check/call turn, not check/fold. What to do UI on the river seems like it could be harder based on how likely you think villain will bluff a worse hand and how thin his value bets are.

bump for results
 

HOWMANY,

can we get the results and your thoughts?

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

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Sorry, I misread the flop as a check/call. So basically ignore everything I wrote, sorry.

I still think turn check/fold is best because he's not folding anything better and he's not calling with much worse. Give him a chance to bluff his worse hands. Then evaluate the river, being more inclined to check/call since I expect him to check behind most A highs.

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sweetjazz,
did you misread the board too? imo this is a pretty easy c/c on the turn since he obv likes to showdown a ton vs. you.

Also, could be wrong but i don't think great HU players chk behind the flop all that often. Some players will do it on drawy boards with small pairs, A-hi, and occasionally K-hi but they almost always intend to SD cheap.

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To be honest its hard for me to decide what the best line is for the turn because we already know the turn action, my thought process is tainted by results [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: I feel like a sucker
 

Do you have experienced any others "check behind on the flop" versus him in the same situation during that session?

Re: bump for results
 

I bricked and called down UI, he had Q7. I should have known there was something wrong when he checked this flop but I'm dumb.

Re: bump for results
 

Last night Roman was playing 20/40 at Commerce. It was weird to see him there, and he played all night. A friend of his asked what he was doing there, and he shrugged and said "running bad." The friend needled him a bit more, saying, "Wow, from 100/200 all the way down to 20/40? Yikes!" And Roman smiled and shrugged again.

Weird. I guess DeathDonkey did take all his monies.

Re: bump for results
 

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Last night Roman was playing 20/40 at Commerce. It was weird to see him there, and he played all night. A friend of his asked what he was doing there, and he shrugged and said "running bad." The friend needled him a bit more, saying, "Wow, from 100/200 all the way down to 20/40? Yikes!" And Roman smiled and shrugged again.

Weird. I guess DeathDonkey did take all his monies.


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Maybe he wasn't in the mood to play higher, or he just thought the 1/2 lineup was mediocre? Did he and DD play heads up for a long time or something?