TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

NL 100

Stack sizes = 130

Hero raises in middle position with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

All fold, till villian calls in the big blind.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Vilian checks, I bet 6, villian raises to 12. I call.

Turn comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villian bets 28 into a 32 dollar pot. Fold right?

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

6max or fr? not that it matters much, still a call. why would you fold this?

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

Call. What are you beat by?

He's unlikely to have a 2, and even more unlikely to have JJ. This is a flush draw or a weaker jack most of the time.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

You are only ahead of a flush draw. Are you willing to back up your stack with a pair of Jacks and ace kicker? Now if you call, what are you thinking? A call only has two purposes, either you are trapping your opponent (you think your hand is better and want him to put him more money in future streets), or you are drawing to win.

Don't be a calling station. If you play like Novles and call the turn $28, what are you going to do if the villain put in another $50+ into the $80+ pot with a non club river?

The advice from Novles and SABR42 are awful.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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If you play like Novles and call the turn $28, what are you going to do if the villain put in another $50+ into the $80+ pot with a non club river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, collect money.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

I'd call but fold to alot of river bets. But a fold isn't bad.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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You are only ahead of a flush draw.

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You are joking, right? Weaker jacks play like this all the time.

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Are you willing to back up your stack with a pair of Jacks and ace kicker?

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That's read dependant, but your hand is fairly strong here on this board. Simply implying "don't go broke with top pair" is terrible over-generalized advice.

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Don't be a calling station. If you play like Novles and call the turn $28, what are you going to do if the villain put in another $50+ into the $80+ pot with a non club river?

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Call again, and expect to be good most of the time.

And often being a "calling station" in position is the best way to extract money from weaker hands and missed draws that will bluff the river. If you raise at any point in the hand worse hands will simply fold, so you don't gain any value. And if you fold ace-jack on this board this easily you might as well just put on a skirt.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

Basically what the above said is: "I call, call and call. I don't know what you have and I don't know if I can win. But I call and hope to collect money most of the time."

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

This is QJ or KJ a lot. Sometimes even 99 or TT. JJ, A2s and K2s may be in his range, too, depending on villain. Also possible is complete air trying to push you off of AQ/AK/mid-PP.

Calling here is about defining a range for your opponent and understanding that you're ahead of that range sufficiently often given the odds offered.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

And basically what you are saying is "don't go broke with top pair; fold; and don't be a calling station."

Here's an idea:

Put your opponent on a range of hands. Once you do that, you might realize that calling down is the best play.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are only ahead of a flush draw. Are you willing to back up your stack with a pair of Jacks and ace kicker? Now if you call, what are you thinking? A call only has two purposes, either you are trapping your opponent (you think your hand is better and want him to put him more money in future streets), or you are drawing to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your whole post is wrong, but this is on another level of wrong. I am never folding here looking at this board. I probably call most of the time but if i feel villan will pay me off w/ a worse J I prob cram here. He is prob raising w/ air on the flop here far far far more often then he is raising w/ any hand that beats us.

edit: reads and stacks sizes would be nice, as if he is shorter stacked I def push here as well. If he is more decent and we are playing with norm or deep eff stacks I call as well.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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I'd call but fold to alot of river bets. But a fold isn't bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this hand on this board against an unknown and about 95% of the people in SSNL is throwning away money.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
NL 100

Stack sizes = 130

Hero raises in middle position with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

All fold, till villian calls in the big blind.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Vilian checks, I bet 6, villian raises to 12. I call.

Turn comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villian bets 28 into a 32 dollar pot. Fold right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right.

If he's really tight, as you say, then he has KK/QQ/JJ/AJ/22, and that's about it. I don't see a tight player calling a pfr from the BB with KJ/QJ/A2s/K2s. I don't see a tight villain overplaying a hand like AcQc/AcKc OOP, either, although that is a possibility if villain is tight preflop but very aggressive post flop. I also don't see why villain would play an underpair like TT/99/88/77 this way on the flop, unless he was trying to snap off a cb from you and lucked out on the turn with a set of 9s.

Check/min-raise on the flop + potish-sized lead on the turn is usually a set, or in this case a boat w/ JJ as the most likely hand.

I think, given the reads, folding is ok.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call. What are you beat by?

He's unlikely to have a 2, and even more unlikely to have JJ. This is a flush draw or a weaker jack most of the time.

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A lot of tight players will call QQ/KK/AA OOP like this to "trap." I think that is a terrible play, but certainly within the range of tight/passive preflop villain. They are more likely than "KJ/QJ" if the OP read is accurate.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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I'd call but fold to alot of river bets. But a fold isn't bad.

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Folding this hand on this board against an unknown and about 95% of the people in SSNL is throwning away money.

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Despite my posts so far saying folding is OK, I agree with both of the statements, above. As a default, I'd probably call the turn, and reevaluate on the river - willing to dump there is another big bet comes and I have no reason to suspect a missed club draw (i.e. I've seen this line on draws vs this villain before).

The OP, however, seems to have a "read" on villain. And given that read, this does seem to be one of those 5% times folding might be ok.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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They are more likely than "KJ/QJ" if the OP read is accurate.

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is this the read you're talking about:

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Stack sizes = 130


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seriously, what read?

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

OP posted no reads, assume unknown

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Basically what the above said is: "I call, call and call. I don't know what you have and I don't know if I can win. But I call and hope to collect money most of the time."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, are you good at either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what he actually said.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call but fold to a lot of river bets. But a fold isn't bad.

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Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically what the above said is: "I call, call and call. I don't know what you have and I don't know if I can win. But I call and hope to collect money most of the time."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, are you good at either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what he actually said.

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Bilbo -

What do you think about the hand, though. Do you call?

And if you call, how big of a bet are you willing to call on the river. If the villain bets big on the river, it's either the nuts or he 3-barrelled with a minicheck-raise on the flop (which i've seen before).

I'd probably call somewhere upto a half bet on river, depending on a few timing tells and what not.

I understand what the poster says about their not many hands the villain could have that beats us on this board.

PREFLOP ACTION:
Most villains will reraise QQ & KK preflop. Some villains might call with AA, but I think that's less likely than a reraise. There's only one way to make JJ. Villain almost surely doesn't have a 2, unless it's the random A2.

However JT and JA are probably likely in his hand range.

So a flush draw does make a large portion of the villains hand. Of course we don't recommend check-raising the flop and leading big on the turn, but it's a ballsy semibluff from the villain. For the villain to do this with JT, he have to be pretty bad. To do it with JA, not so bad.

However, if he leads big on most rivers, I think we have to be behind quite a bit of the time. Sure he could be on air, but he'd need huge balls. I think we could be splitting on the river a decent % of the time.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

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If he's really tight, as you say

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Who said villain is tight? I miss something?

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he's really tight, as you say

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said villain is tight? I miss something?

[/ QUOTE ]

this was on Full Tilt and villain was using the little girl avatar

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

I just spit diet coke out of my nose.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
this was on Full Tilt and villain was using the little girl avatar

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

I think that the chances that this river getting checked through are very slim. As always, reads help.

I think you should make the decision of whether or not you are going to call here and on the river. Calling and folding to further action is a decent plan most times, but in this instance, I think that the chances of him checking the river are very slim. Maybe he will check/fold the river with something like TT or 55, but meh.

So, by the flop/turn action, we can put him on a few hands IMO: clubs/2/J/some pp/air. We currently beat all but a 2 and some pp turned boat at the moment. I think that we can generally narrow out larger overpairs because they usually RR PF. But they still make up a tiny part of his range.

I think that I would call the turn. Then probably fold to a river bet if it were [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I'm not sure if I would fold to something like a 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but folding the river is probably best to another bet, as I don't think typical opponents will c/r the flop/bet turn/river with something we beat.

I don't think folding now is terrible either.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP posted no reads, assume unknown

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to quit reading these quickly on lunch and coffee breaks. I must have mixed up this OP with another where the villain was marked as tight preflop.

So, I call and reevaluate at the river. Yet another big bet on the end probably beats AJ and I'd be willing to fold, but not yet. I listed some hand ranges in another post if villain wan't tight preflop, which he isn't, so its AA/KK/QQ (now less likely, since without a read I'd expect those to reraise preflop), JJ/KJs/QJs/AcKc/AcQc and maybe 99 that tried to check raise to snap off a cb and got lucky on the turn. I suppose A2s/K2s is possible if villain is loose enough to call a pfr OOP with that kind of weak hand. I don't see too many other hands that make sense. So, I think calling is good, folding is probalby just as good, and a willingness to drop the river is important if you call the turn and a non-club hits and villain bets more than a "blocking" bet on the river. I'd expect TPWK to make a 1/2 pot or less bet on the end, but bigger hands than TPTK to bet more.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

I have a question: is 3 betting the flop a terrible move? Let's see; you raised PF, get raised to 12 on the flop, and you make it 24 or 36 to go. If he comes over the top now, can we safely fold? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question: is 3 betting the flop a terrible move? Let's see; you raised PF, get raised to 12 on the flop, and you make it 24 or 36 to go. If he comes over the top now, can we safely fold? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

"Raising for information" is bad when all it accomplishes is fold out worse hands and bluffs, which we don't want to fold.

Re: TPTK facing a min raise and a strong turn bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically what the above said is: "I call, call and call. I don't know what you have and I don't know if I can win. But I call and hope to collect money most of the time."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, are you good at either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what he actually said.

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Bilbo -

What do you think about the hand, though. Do you call?

And if you call, how big of a bet are you willing to call on the river. If the villain bets big on the river, it's either the nuts or he 3-barrelled with a minicheck-raise on the flop (which i've seen before).


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I call, planning to call big turn and river bets unless a club hits and then it's feel/history/how drunk I am [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I probably value bet any street that Villain checks on, except a club. If Villain checks a turn club, then I check behind and call a river bet or VB if checked to.

I can fold vs. some villains to a big bet on the river (especially if it's a K), but unknowns pull this [censored] so often with any decent J that folding is burning money.

You have to understand that the vast majority of TAGs (fuhgeddabout bad players) just don't GET that c/ring here with a weak J turns their hand into a bluff, and many players think that if their opponent is just calling, they can't possibly have a worse hand (otherwise they'd raise!!!1!).

You have to mercilessly take advantage of players like this, rather than giving them too much credit.