(2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

Villain is new to the table, hence completely unknown.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>


preflop: non-standard for me. I'll do it ~20% of the time. Ofcourse I'll respect 'fold preflop always' comments, but if you think so, please comment the rest anyway (consider it a misclick) Is this a bad steal attempt?

flop: bad peel? I'm not sure I like it at all. But I think villains most likely hands is a pair or some draw, (possibly both) so my outs should be clean.

river: altough the 7 looks kinda scary it shouldn't really make his hand right?

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

Why didn't you raise the turn?
I raise this preflop 100% of the time.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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Why didn't you raise the turn?


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a) It seemed like a good idea to let him keep betting his worse pairs and draws
b) I wouldn't like to get 3bet when I can't tell if it is a semibluff or a better hand. (maybe not likely but I have no read on this guy at all)

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

I can't remember the last time I folded JTs when it was folded to me in the CO.

I'd fold the flop. Even if all your outs are clean you're only getting 5.5 to 1 current. I'd just raise the turn against an unknown as I don't want him checking the river with his low pair/busted draw.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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I can't remember the last time I folded JTs when it was folded to me in the CO.

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ok... I'm starting to see a reason to why my VPIP/PFR (20/15) and blindstealing sux... Note taken.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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I can't remember the last time I folded JTs preflop

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Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

I'd consider raising the donk bet on the flop, if for nothing else it lets you know if you can get free cards off the stranger when you are in favorable position. As for the call I'm leaning towards Sharpie's reply regarding 5.5 to 1. With expected value you could argue even money but how sure can you be about your outs being clean on a stranger? With the calling line I would consider going passive and showdown with improvment on the turn. Thinking more about it, raising the turn is a strong play considering that if he is new to the table its hard for him to play back at you without two-pair, in which case if his hand was at least that strong on the flop, why would he donk bet into the aggressor (unless he is supernewb for 2/4 which does happen). Going passive and showing down gets information, but the info doesn't seem that important and the price seems high for it as well as missing bets for value.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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I'd consider raising the donk bet on the flop, if for nothing else it lets you know if you can get free cards off the stranger when you are in favorable position. As for the call I'm leaning towards Sharpie's reply regarding 5.5 to 1.

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You have J-high, with two spades, at the pot is small, and the flop is 652 with two hearts? why are we raising this flop?

Even if he's on a draw, he is probably ahead of JT with high card alone.

I hate flop donks, but man, fold the flop.

If you make it to the turn, pretty please, raise the turn. If you are going to call with no pair, no draw, please raise when you hit.

He won't call two bets on the river with a flush draw, he will with a pair or a flush draw on the turn.


PF is a raise 100% of the time for me. I haven't folded JTs in a 6 max game in an unraised pot in my life

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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You have J-high, with two spades, at the pot is small, and the flop is 652 with two hearts? why are we raising this flop?

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If you get the free card its a great way to spend 1sb if your outs are clean instead of calling, 6 outs with two cards to come is ~3 to 1.
A good question is why we aren't raising donk bets on the flop from a newcomer, you can't say that BB doesn't have 74, 78 the way it played. A better question is how often you would expect to get a free card.

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Even if he's on a draw, he is probably ahead of JT with high card alone.

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Yeah, an understandable worry would be something like Kh2h which is going nowhere, but again I would argue the range of holdings if he is currently ahead will tend to give free cards and presto you're at 3 to 1 +EV. Not to mention things are great if he has 78/74.
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I hate flop donks, but man, fold the flop.

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I have trouble not raising donk bets on the flop and for good reason, I've received enough free cards not to mention stealing the pot on the turn against a more familiar opponent. If a broadway card comes on the turn and you continue you aggression it makes it difficult for them to continue. That's the spot I like my opponents. I don't like opening up the avenue to newbs that I will fold to donk bets, which is debatable because really you want flop donks from your opponents.
There is a problem with a 3bet, but really what hand is a 3bet that should have been checkraised instead? Or in fact, what hand is a 3bet that should have waited to the turn to either donk or cr?

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If you make it to the turn, pretty please, raise the turn. If you are going to call with no pair, no draw, please raise when you hit.

He won't call two bets on the river with a flush draw, he will with a pair or a flush draw on the turn.


PF is a raise 100% of the time for me. I haven't folded JTs in a 6 max game in an unraised pot in my life

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Well said

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

Anyone saying JTs shouldn't be raised UTG when not in a very loose game?

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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Anyone saying JTs shouldn't be raised UTG when not in a very loose game?

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6-handed I would fold UTG preflop if I'm running bad.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

1. People need to stop overusing the free card play, particularly in blind steal situations and in shorthanded games. It just doesn't work that often. When we get three-bet and bet into on the turn, we cost ourselves twice and much as we would have saved had our play worked.

2. I often like the delayed river raise with top pair in situations like this. Opponents:

a. Hate to fold anything to one more bet on the river if raised.
b. Don't like to three-bet anything but the nuts on the river.
c. Like to keep bluffing in heads-up situations.

All these things make me want to wait until the river with hands that are strong but which I don't want to get reraised with.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

so I think we've established that preflop is good, and flop is bad. I now I'm bound to make this flop mistake over again, but I'll try to maintain discipline.

On the turn, would anyone like to help me quantify the relative merits of raising the turn or waiting for the river. First, what are my possible lines here?

a) raise-fold turn, followed by bet-folding the turn on a good card? call a donk on the river if a scarecard hits?

b) call turn and raise-fold good rivers. call if a scarecard hits. if opp. checks I feel like I have to bet a safe card.

safe cards = non-hearts, no A,2,3,4,5,6 ??

Any other alternative line you would suggest?

BTW: I'm amazed that I'm actually even typing raise-fold in a hand with TP against an unknown. Isn't that overly FPS ???

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

I'm generally raising JTs in the CO first in. Against typical opponents it's a straight fold on the flop for me.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

good work, PF fine. flop is a peel and fold UI situation. I usually pop the turn in the heat of battle but a river raise is better, you're a lot less likely to be 3bet on the river (see Theory of Poker for more on this), plus you usually get the "wtf call" (did Guru coin this or just bring it to my attention).

nh.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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I can't remember the last time I folded JTs preflop UTG

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Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

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1. People need to stop overusing the free card play, particularly in blind steal situations and in shorthanded games. It just doesn't work that often. When we get three-bet and bet into on the turn, we cost ourselves twice and much as we would have saved had our play worked.

2. I often like the delayed river raise with top pair in situations like this. Opponents:

a. Hate to fold anything to one more bet on the river if raised.
b. Don't like to three-bet anything but the nuts on the river.
c. Like to keep bluffing in heads-up situations.

All these things make me want to wait until the river with hands that are strong but which I don't want to get reraised with.

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I wish I could just repost this as if it was my post, since this is really a great reply.

Thanks for the insight as usual W.

Re: (2/4) Stealing with JTs
 

thanx for the replies guys. Villain gave me the WTF call with 92h.