flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

No read but this is the 2nd hand he reraised me in a row.

1. Do you call or fold PF?
2. Now what?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($96.50)
BB ($104.40)
UTG ($155.95)
MP ($74.55)
CO ($99.70)
Hero ($99.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $15</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $15</font>, Hero ?

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

38

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Calling is fine in position, especially if you have reason to think he's 3-betting light.

I'd either min-raise or shove. Sometimes I'd call down, but I don't really like it here with the board texture and his bet size.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

make it 40 and go from there

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

i would just call here

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Call

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

with the stack sizes and that board texture, raise right away in case he is drawing (just calling gives him too much leverage if he hits on the turn, since you are committed with the stack sizes and the strength of your hand). A raise also probably gets it all in if he has a big pair that he won't fold. unless you think it is very likely he is weak AND he'll bet again on the next street, a raise here is probably the best play. sounds like you don't know much about the player and i think getting re-raised twice in a row without any other information doesn't mean anything in particular.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

calling sucks...this is the exact board that villain would insta-get-it-in with an OP. (ZOMG draw plz hold- ah [censored])

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

A raise of any size is good. [censored] even a min-raise works. If the board was drier, I'd flat all day...but wouldn't it suck for a spade to roll off and kill your action?

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Calling flop is fine. This being a re-raised pot changes how much a wet board influences the action.

Villain will have just over a pot size bet left on the turn (wow his flop bet size sucks no matter what his holding). Just let him keep betting your hand for you.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

I raise to $40. What hands will he stack off on the turn that he wouldn't shove over our raise? I don't see any except if he hits one of his six outs in case of two OCs.

Too many cards can kill our action on the turn and he might c/f thinking "he either just hit his draw or has a better OP than me, I fold".

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling sucks...this is the exact board that villain would insta-get-it-in with an OP. (ZOMG draw plz hold- ah [censored])

[/ QUOTE ]

if his entire range was overpairs then calling would suck, but being that it is not calling is fine

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

raaaaaaaise... try to play a big pot.

the turn is much more likely to scare a big hand than it is to lock in a weaker one.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

i also like a raise... someone mentioned he'll put you on a draw and i agree

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Snap raise unless he has a wide 3 bet range. Even if a draw card hits, he will probably pay you off with an overpair.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Calling is probably best. I wouldn't be concerned about an 'action killing' overcard on the turn. If he has nothing and is aggro then that card turns into a great card for him to bluff on with a board texture like this. And if it's a Q and he has JJ, for example, he's probably not going to just check/fold since it really doesn't make a ton of sense for you to have a Q.

Raising is 'okay', but I really would only raise here to balance my bluff / thinner value raises. In a vacuum, I think calling is significantly more likely to extract more value.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

raise the flop definitely. it is the only thing you can do. raise big as well

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Also another note re: call vs raise. If this guy is reraising light, which may easily be the case here after he's reraised a CO then BTN open twice in a row, but is just completely shutting down if you call on flops like this (unless he has a monster) and letting you showdown (or take free cards) with any hand you want, then you're going to make a ton of money off of him since that style of play makes reraising light one of the spewiest plays possible.

On the other hand, if he's not reraising light then you're often either looking at a big overpair here in which the case the money is getting in the middle by the river almost always anyhow, or two big overcards which have to fold to a raise, but might 'catch up' on the turn.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raaaaaaaise... try to play a big pot.

the turn is much more likely to scare a big hand than it is to lock in a weaker one.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ike it's already a big pot &lt;100BB deep.

Call, bet the turn if checked to, go broke no matter what, this is super-standard.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

What possible reason would he have for slowing down with only a PSB left?

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where/how you play, but unless you have the world's nittiest image - most people are never folding QQ/KK/AA here regardless of the turn and even if he does have JJ/TT, he's probably not just check/folding the turn given the pot size and that your hand doesn't look at all like something that would improve from a Q/K/A.

As well, this is all assuming he even has a hand. A SB reraising a BTN steal means very very little.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

What possible reason would he have for slowing down with only a PSB left?

[/ QUOTE ]the flush hits? A card hits that makes 2 pair a greater possibility? Anything that makes him uncomfortable to felt JJ like a K/A/[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]/etc

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

I think we should raise now. Overpairs probably feel good and ready to stack off here, and if they're ready now, why wait? I'd like to know from some who are saying call, what the correct play would be if we do call and villian checks to us on the turn. I can see why checking could be correct, but not sure how to go about playing it the right way. What would you do:

1)When the turn is a third flush card
2)When it's not a flush card

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Casper, I think there's a problem with how you're going about this. You're really working optimize your play in this spot around holding like TT/JJ, as well as working under the assumption that he's apparently also happy to just check/fold TT/JJ to anything even resembling a scare card on the turn.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not villain would check/fold TT/JJ if something like a spade peeled off. In my experience, they wouldn't even consider it. But that's not something I can really argue since it's based on our differing experiences.

However, I'm sure you'd agree that optimizing your play around such an unlikely/exact range (TT/JJ) is not the right thing to do. We have to expect that TT/JJ makes up a very small part of his overall range. Even if he's a very tight 3-bettor then you're probably looking at QQ-AA, AQ, AK, maybe KQ - with TT/JJ making up a very very small portion of his range (if they're even in it). If he's a light 3-bettor, which seems may easily be the case, then his range is obviously MUCH MUCH wider than that - and again TT/JJ continues to become increasingly irrelevant when playing against his overall range.

I do agree that if we know his hand is TT/JJ then this is a great spot to raise. But I'm sure you'd also agree that if we know his hand is AQ/AK/67/77/whatever then raising is a terrible play. The problem is most of his range can't really take the heat - but may value bet/semi-bluff/straight out bluff or even 'catch up' on the turn. And alot of his range range that CAN take the heat, is going to stack on most turns/rivers anyhow.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Dire, I understand what you are saying...I'm not trying to insenuate that his range is polarized towards TT/JJ at all...

I play 26/21ish and get looked up with all sorts of crap here...I guess thats why I shove- it allows me to shove worse and helps create the image I want. (Don't [censored] 3bet me you newbie, this is my [censored] table.) I also think calling looks stronger than shoving.

This is the 2nd time in a row villain has 3-bet us...he's going to assume we are frustrated and look us up light...and if he doesnt then fine..maybe he'll leave me the [censored] alone!

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

I would distinguish the differences in calling on a flop like this one and one like A87 (also with a FD). Regardless of which might look like it looks strong or weaker, calling on a flop like A87 is EFFECTIVELY much stronger - since most hands have to feel like they're turning their hand into a bluff, or extremely extremely marginal value, if much money goes in on the turn. Whereas many hands could happily value bet / semi-bluff us on the turn given this flop.

I also believe there is a much bigger need to balance raises on flops like A87 compared to this one. Like you said, you're getting looked up by all sorts of crap on flops like this one. It doesn't matter how many sets you've jammed on these flops, you're not usually bluffing out TT. Again, comparing this to the A87 flop - I find a HUGE need to balance raises on the A87 flop. That is a flop you can easily push people off many hands, but requires alot of balancing to do so since many players would just call the flop if they actually had an ace.

A flop like this one I would be more inclined to call or float a reasonably wide range, as slowplays and with legitimate marginal hands. On a flop like A87 I'd be inclined to raise, for value and as bluffs, a reasonably wide range. So I guess it works both ways. If shoving here makes sense for your game then there's nothing else to be said - although I still do not understand how shoving really allows you to shove worse on flops like this. Basically, I find I get the most value pushing people off hands on flops with scare cards - but playing a bit more passively on benign boards giving people the chance to bluff or try to make very thin value bets.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Fair enough- agree to disagree, but have fun floating relative unknowns in 3bet pots.

Also, your last sentence makes no sense as that is the exact opposite of what you are saying to do on this hand (you say to play passive on benign boards- this board is very drawy; you say you like to push people off hand when scare cards come, but you're going to let scare cards come when you have a hand?) You already said that he isn't likely to slow down on scare cards because he only has a PSB left...so which is it? You like to float and push people off their hands in 3 bet pots when scare cards hit, or do you like to slowplay because they are unlikely to be scared?

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is fine in position, especially if you have reason to think he's 3-betting light.

I'd either min-raise or shove. Sometimes I'd call down, but I don't really like it here with the board texture and his bet size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling is not fine IMO. Lots of turn cards will fall that will kill your action. Defo raise it up.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

OMG just actually read how many of you advocate slow playing this hand. WTF WTF WTF? Big hands = big pots.

Just too many cards will defo kill your action on the turn, if Villain has big PP. If he is raising lite and you raise and he folds then so be it.

Raise = +EV

This is soooo standard a raise my mind boggles.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough- agree to disagree, but have fun floating relative unknowns in 3bet pots.

Also, your last sentence makes no sense as that is the exact opposite of what you are saying to do on this hand (you say to play passive on benign boards- this board is very drawy; you say you like to push people off hand when scare cards come, but you're going to let scare cards come when you have a hand?) You already said that he isn't likely to slow down on scare cards because he only has a PSB left...so which is it? You like to float and push people off their hands in 3 bet pots when scare cards hit, or do you like to slowplay because they are unlikely to be scared?

[/ QUOTE ]

A benign board doesn't necessarily mean a dry board. A84 rainbow is an extremely dry board but it's far far from benign for a 3-bet pot. This board does have multiple draws, but it's pretty benign for a 3-bet pot.

And no, I would never just float a complete unknown in a reraised pot just for the hell of it.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

Ahhhh... just reread what I wrote earlier. That was misleading. I did not mean to imply typically floating these sort of boards planning to just buy the pot on scare cards. I meant buying pots where scare cards FLOP. Editted my post.

Re: flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?
 

I raise flop here 35-40ish. I don't want him to fear that Im on a draw here and he may slow down if the turn is a spade/10/A. I think he'll be willing to get ai on flop more likely on turn and river