25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

MP1 villain is a 58/37/2.5 lagtard who raises large amounts pf from 8-32BB. MP2 no reads.


Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+2: $3.30
MP1: $61.15
MP2: $13.45
CO: $24.30
Hero (BTN): $49.40
SB: $29.40
BB: $23.70
UTG: $29.90
UTG+1: $32.85

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises to $13.45 and is All-In</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $49.40 and is All-In</font>, 3 folds

Flop: ($29.25) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($29.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($29.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $29.25 Pot ($1.45 Rake)

My question is whether I should have played this another way. Do I want to overshove this here and iso the short stack or do I just call and let lagtard in if he wants to gamble. I do not think that he will call me but if he does, I will then have to play AA 160BB deep, and allow his hand a chance to beat me as well, which I really do not want to do, even against this moron. Anyone do anything differently?

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

I'd say this is a call. There's no play to the flop at all. You'll have an SPR of 1: it's going in. Let him try to iso the short stack or do something stupid. He's only getting 6.5 to 1 implied preflop, so he's making a mistake if he doesn't fold.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Wow call, and I'm not being results oriented.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

I would call as well.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Eazy call. If he calls and outflops you that's just unlucky.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

call and gamboool a little...

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

"58/37/2.5 lagtard"

I actually like the shove.
Pre-flop there is so much random crap that makes up his range including
- Small pairs that flop overs nearly always
- Broadways like KJ or QT that miss well over 50%
- A-rag thats going to miss a hell of a lot of flops.

These lagtards get in with these hands light pre-flop but post flop they (sometimes) find the fold button?
I think that the % of his range that calls the $13.45 isnt all that different from the range he calls a shove with.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the % of his range that calls the $13.45 isnt all that different from the range he calls a shove with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly wrong. Even the wildest player will be hesitant to cold-call 200BB with a mediocre hand.

But as long as they have chips behind they will call with crap hands, getting bad odds.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even the wildest player will be hesitant to cold-call 200BB with a mediocre hand.

But as long as they have chips behind they will call with crap hands, getting bad odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Maybe at the higher levels but this is NL25 and these are special players.

Try to get in the head of a 58/37, they are a very different beast even from a 35/17.
Why are they at a table? Same reason they play blackjack or roulette.
I have seen Q8 and K3 arrr in from these donks.

Im not shoving to make him fold or to cut down his odds (he is far enough behind as it is) Im shoving because I want him to call.
What Im thinking here is the opposite of a "Stop &amp; Go". You dont want to let your opponent off the hook by seeing that he has missed the flop.

I dont think calling is all that bad but I really do think that shoving is the more +EV of the two.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

How can shoving have a greater +EV then just calling. I mean, what is he going to call with? I think this is wrong thinking. Yes, he will outflop you occasionaly, but he will also call your all in flop bet with a wide range. If he beats you, so what. The goal is not to win the pot, but rather to make the most +EV decision.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Call and let MP hang himself.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Ok so it seems that the general consensus is that I should have just called and let the moron in. Although he is way overaggressive pf, he generally plays fit or fold postflop. Does this change anything? prolly not I guess.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can shoving have a greater +EV then just calling. I mean, what is he going to call with? I think this is wrong thinking. Yes, he will outflop you occasionaly, but he will also call your all in flop bet with a wide range. If he beats you, so what. The goal is not to win the pot, but rather to make the most +EV decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have already said Im not worried about getting out flopped.
My thinking is that he will miss most flops with unpaired hands and get off the hook.

I think your underestimating the all in calling range of a spewtard.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

The question is, how much more often does he call the 13 than the 49 and how does he then play the flop.

My gut says he has to call the bigger amount at least half as often as the small bet to make shoving +EV.

Re: 25NL: I shove 200BB preflop! Standard?
 

Yeah, it is close.
I think he does call at least 1/2.
Remember if he has 2 unpaired cards he flops nothing ~70% of the time.
Also some people cannot lay down 22 pre-flop bur once overcards come.

Thinking about it calling does have the advantage that he may take a shot at you with air on the flop. meh.