.5/1 Razz hand
 

Just looking for some input. No specific read on villain, but play has been pretty poor and I don't doubt villain limped with two pretty low cards and a 9+ hole card.

Not very good at razz yet, so any and all criticism is welcome.

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.20 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls

5th Street - (4.10 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (6.10 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (8.10 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (8.10 BB)

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

I'd bet the river. Some opponents will call 6th drawing to a smooth 8, but I think he has an 8 there more than he doesn't. He'll pretty much call with an 8, maybe even a 9. Some times he'll have improved and you'll lose another BB but that happens only about 1/3 of the time. Less, really, since he probably would have bet some of his improvements (to a wheel or a 6) although he may be going for a check raise here.

Checkraising on the river is so infrequent at low levels that I almost assume that a given player won't do it until I see otherwise. So I think he probably either has a 7-9 on the river and will check-call. More than 2/3 of the time you'll win an extra bet, the remaining time you lose an extra bet, so I think a bet is good. I actually think these estimates might be conservative and you'll profit more than indicated above.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

Good point. My thought process was that basically he won't call without a strong 8 or a 7, but I've seen much worse and don't see a reason why he wouldn't call here. Maybe I was afraid of the unlikely ch-r...

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

I wouldn't three-bet fourth. It's very likely that you're ahead, but probably not by a whole lot. Definitely bet the river. The other guy probably has an Eight, and he won't fold it. Given your board and the action, he can hardly be check-raising unless he has a monster.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't doubt villain limped with two pretty low cards and a 9+ hole card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your read doesn't fit well with the action in the hand here. If you suspected this on 3rd st, you should have come in for a completion. If you suspected this from 4th st on, you should get more practice reading hands in razz. Also, make sure to keep notes on specific villains so you can get a better idea of who is likely to limp in with a "2-card" hand and who will limp UTG with a monster.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

What is the downside to 3-betting? A small edge is still an edge. I want to punish the goofball for raising his draw to an 8 against my "wheel" draw. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It also makes that bet on the river a little safer, because his opponent may be afraid to raise a seven.

Either way though, a river bet is required.


[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't three-bet fourth. It's very likely that you're ahead, but probably not by a whole lot. Definitely bet the river. The other guy probably has an Eight, and he won't fold it. Given your board and the action, he can hardly be check-raising unless he has a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't three-bet fourth. It's very likely that you're ahead, but probably not by a whole lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't he have to have A2 or A4 in the hole to have me beat? I think we're always ahead here since he would have jammed those hand preflop; this table wasn't aggressive enough for him to have shot for a limp-raise.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't doubt villain limped with two pretty low cards and a 9+ hole card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your read doesn't fit well with the action in the hand here. If you suspected this on 3rd st, you should have come in for a completion. If you suspected this from 4th st on, you should get more practice reading hands in razz. Also, make sure to keep notes on specific villains so you can get a better idea of who is likely to limp in with a "2-card" hand and who will limp UTG with a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points, thanks. I basically meant it was a possibility that he'd limped with a 9+ in the hole; not a definite thing. Even so, I think you're right in that I should be raising 3rd anyways.

fwiw the guy ended up having 95 in the hole and my 8 was good.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

Trying to discuss $0.50 / $1 strategy is like trying to discuss strategy with participants in the special Olympics...

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to discuss $0.50 / $1 strategy is like trying to discuss strategy with participants in the special Olympics...

[/ QUOTE ]
This is demeaning to participants in the special olympics

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

This simply isn't true. Anyway, if that's what you think, why open a $.50/1 razz thread?

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is demeaning to participants in the special olympics

[/ QUOTE ] Being a .50/1 player, I have to agree somewhat. Sorry Andy - there are some pretty good players there but what the heck was this guy's "strategy?" Was he thinking on 4th - if I catch perfect-perfect-perfect I'll have a winning Ten hi! I have decided you don't get good at Razz to win money, you get good at Razz to not lose a lot while waiting for this guy and all his alter egos to come and force their money on you whether you like it or not! (And I do.)

So, what's it like at 3/6?

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25

(converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (3.30 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.65 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (8.65 BB)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.65 | Rake $0.40
Seat 1: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 2: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: showed [Kd 2h 2s Td 5c Ac Ks] and lost with Lo: K,T,5,2,A
Seat 6: Hero showed [4h 5d 6d Qc 8d Ah 5s] and won ($8.25) with Lo: 8,6,5,4,A
Seat 7: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: folded on the 3rd Street

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
...there are some pretty good players there but what the heck was this guy's "strategy?" Was he thinking on 4th - if I catch perfect-perfect-perfect I'll have a winning Ten hi!

[/ QUOTE ]

He's thinking that you'll fold. If that's your example of poor play at 0.50/1.00, I'm not sure I agree. If I'm playing his hand, I probably would have given it up on 5th street, but taking a total bluff all the way to the river once in a while isn't necessarily a bad idea.

I did this earlier tonight (at $1/$2) and won when my opponent folded to my river bet. I was aggressively betting the whole way with this hand: 4 Q 4 7 2 2 J


Getting caught in a total bluff like this is not entirely a bad thing; it will buy you action in the future when you actually are betting a monster the whole way and somebody calls you down with 9-8 low because they've seen you bet all the way with total air.

Re: .5/1 Razz hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did this earlier tonight (at $1/$2) and won when my opponent folded to my river bet. I was aggressively betting the whole way with this hand: 4 Q 4 7 2 2 J


[/ QUOTE ] I'm curious, what was your opponent showing and are you sure he folded to your pressure and didn't just end up with a pair or K hi? I know some players who come in, play wildly on purpose and then go on to clean up at the table when they suddenly "get a clue." But not this guy, who just left after this. And it isn't uncommon, they will literally raise you when you catch good and they get a Q on 4th. Being a micro, I have huge respect for many micros - I know they could play at much higher stakes with a bankroll and do well.

I agree getting caught bluffing is a good thing, I just posted a hand like that, come to think of it.