TT river check-call
 

First orbit.

Ultimate Bet 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG folds.

River: (7.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Re: TT river check-call
 

There's more value in a river bet.

Re: TT river check-call
 

Against unknowns I don't like to bet/fold (which is your only other option) so I like your line here a lot. nice hand.

Re: TT river check-call
 

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There's more value in a river bet.

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What would an opponent call with that we beat? (smaller pocket pair maybe?) What would he fold that beats us? Unless you can bet/fold I don't think I like a bet on the river. For me this is a standard check-to-induce-bluff-and-then-call spot. If he bets I expect to lose a good percentage of the time to a J or an 8 but this costs the same as bet-folding and gets me to a showdown. If I'm ahead I really don't think most opponents are calling a river bet.

Re: TT river check-call
 

On a related note, I've been trying my hardest to stay out of hands with unknowns recently. My standard procedure is to open up 10 windows 30-60 minutes before I intend to play, get the auto-import going and then come back later. I use a tool that mines the pokertracker database for the tables that are open and gives me some stats (average pot size, average vpip, average pfr, avg # of hands I have on opponents and a list of opponent types (via autorating)). This is not only REALLY handy for table selection, but also this means that I have 50-100 hands on some players and generally at least a dozen hands on some of the others. Since I'm chasing people in my fish list there is usually at least one terrible player that I have 300+ hands on.

(This is just a response to not wanting to bet/fold an unknown, which I agree with. If he's not unknown your action is much clearer, like I will bet/fold against passive players, I will bet for value against calling stations, I will check-call aggressive players, etc)

Re: TT river check-call
 

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There's more value in a river bet.

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Absolutely. Bet/fold this baby all day long.

Re: TT river check-call
 

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Against unknowns I don't like to make money

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FYP

this is a pretty bad check/call IMO. throw a bet in like you have the nuts, this isn't an easy bluff. bluffs happen when they're really not sure you could have much and there's a scare card and they had some non-showdownable reason to be in there. he's got a piece of this board and he thinks he can beat AK by calling but why raise mid pair when AK folds and AA calls?

Re: TT river check-call
 

What makes you think he has an 8 or J? What bluffs from busted draws are you inducing on the river? Thar be value over yonder hills.

Re: TT river check-call
 

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What makes you think he has an 8 or J?

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I don't.
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What bluffs from busted draws are you inducing on the river?

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From busted pair draws. And set draws. This board is unimpressive. When I check to “induce a bluff”, this opponent will bet a lot of hands not as bluffs, but because he thinks he has the best hand. There isn’t a lot of pure air he makes it to showdown with here after cold calling preflop (so low rags are very unlikely). I get bets from any ace most of the time, any king a fair amount, definitely from A4/A6, Q10 sometimes, 99/77/55 a lot; and the majority of these hands fold to a bet.

I am not checking to induce a bluff, but to indicate false weakness. And the average (unknown) SSSH player pounces on that far too fast.

Re: TT river check-call
 

i think that this is pretty close. I dont mind the cc because some opponents will take one last stab at the pot and you can pick that off.
If you do bet it has to be a bf.

Re: TT river check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes you think he has an 8 or J?

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I don't.
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What bluffs from busted draws are you inducing on the river?

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From busted pair draws. And set draws. This board is unimpressive. When I check to “induce a bluff”, this opponent will bet a lot of hands not as bluffs, but because he thinks he has the best hand. There isn’t a lot of pure air he makes it to showdown with here after cold calling preflop (so low rags are very unlikely). I get bets from any ace most of the time, any king a fair amount, definitely from A4/A6, Q10 sometimes, 99/77/55 a lot; and the majority of these hands fold to a bet.

I am not checking to induce a bluff, but to indicate false weakness. And the average (unknown) SSSH player pounces on that far too fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a sec.. you think there are hands that he will bet for value if you check but fold if you bet? if hero has AK you think a bet is good?

Re: TT river check-call
 

Yes, as long as we are talking about an unknown (I assume a little too loose with a poor understanding of aggression). I think you give a little too much credit to the average player. He’s not thinking “value bet”; he’s thinking, “aha! aggressive guy stopped betting, his hand must not be that good. My (bottom pair/A high/K high?) might be good after all. Bet.” They’re not thinking “a bet only gets called by hands that beat me.” If you fold, they still get to see the chips sliding their way. That’s a win to them, plain and simple. Hell, I though that way far too long into my playing days. That’s how I assume unknowns are thinking, anyway.

Very good question with AK. I think it’s very close. Check calling still induces bets from the same hands, but now you lose more often than with 10s with that line. Not sure if I think he folds low pairs more often when I bet or bets weaker aces more often when I check. Maybe avoiding a bluff raise (while very very rare I think) tips the scales to checking? My line would have been to bet, but I hadn’t really thought it through before. My guess is there is very minimal long term consequence.

Re: TT river check-call
 

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My standard procedure is to open up 10 windows 30-60 minutes before I intend to play, get the auto-import going and then come back later.

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What sites still allow this to work?

Re: TT river check-call
 

PartyPoker, if you use the tool to load observed hands. It's called freephg or something like that. I can send it to you if you like, pm me. It might work with party skins also, not sure.

UltimateBet, FullTilt both allow this. UB actually lets you pull up hands you weren't observing, so I have a tool that will pull up the last 100 hands for me.

I've played 95% of my hands on these 3 sites.