Large Pot With Aces
 

This hand happened in AC a few weeks ago - been away for a bit due to work commitments. 40-80.

Anyway, game was loose and playing a bit wildly. Five people limped to the cutoff, a loose/typical player who raised. I was on the button and looked down at A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] so I gave him the 120 treatment. The BB called two bets cold and (pretty shockingly actually) every other limper proceeded to call two bets more. The cutoff then capped, I of course called, and we took the flop eight ways for four bets.

The flop came down pretty ugly, K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Everyone checked to the cutoff who bet, I called and four others called. Six of us to the turn, 19 big bets in the pot.

The turn brings the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It's checked to the cutoff who again bets. I raise, and it's folded back to a MP player who plays very well but is capable of making moves, playing very aggressively. He now 3-bets which makes me a little ill. The cutoff now coldcalls two more bets so it's one more bet to me. Plan?

And what about the rest of the hand?

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I fold the turn. It seems like a really ridiculous move for a good player to make in what very much looks like a protected pot if he is bluffing. The rest of the hand looks fine, just a really horrible spot where whatever you do you think it's not right. Wouldn't be surprised if cutoff has the other two aces or has KKK.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I raise the flop and face the field with two bets. Obviously you don't fold out single high clubs or pairs, but the runner runner guys get lost and it's pure valuetown. This isn't a spot to wait for the turn given your relative position I think. I guess I call down given the big pot and your read.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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I raise the flop and face the field with two bets. Obviously you don't fold out single high clubs or pairs, but the runner runner guys get lost and it's pure valuetown. This isn't a spot to wait for the turn given your relative position I think. I guess I call down given the big pot and your read.

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I agree with the above, especially the flop raise. It was a blessing that the preflop raiser was to your right so you can clear the field. A raise has the field not only looking at calling two cold but the prospect of you and the cutoff making it four.

As played it looks like you need to grit your teeth and call down purely due to pot size. If a club hits on the river and you get a bet and call in front of you, then a fold seems safe.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I raise the flop too. As played, I don't think you can call here. The cold caller is pretty scary here (feels like a small flush or set), and the river could get ugly. I'd just give it up here.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I don't mind waiting for the turn to raise here; I think it gives you the best chance to protect your hand and you may be able to save money if a fourth club hits. Raising the flop may not be bad either since anybody without a club may be hesitant to continue.

On the turn, I would call and pray that the three better is getting aggressive with a pair and a flush draw like AcKd or has a set in which case you might have two outs to outdraw him for the win unless the other guy has a club or the made flush already.

If a blank hits the river I probably call one bet but I am not too optimistic.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I think you can fold this turn. I know the pot is big but this guy is bluffing .0001% of the time. He's got a flush here way too often.

I prefer raising the turn, not b/c I'm worried about hand protection but b/c the turn card changes our equity so much and I don't want to invest a ton of bets on the flop to fold on the turn. Once the 4th club hits our hand is toast unless of course its the Ac.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

There's no way you can fold the turn, the pot is too big and he can have too many hands you beat. When people are planning to checkraise the turn and someone raises before them some generally coldcall and some generally 3bet. your guy sounds like he's in the later group, for that reason you should call.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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I raise the flop and face the field with two bets.

-DeathDonkey

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It may be he decided that two big bets on the turn would get out more people than two small bets on the flop--however, with pot sizes of 35 and 22 bets respectively there's not much protecting the pot either way.

Might as well bet the river whatever comes. Might get called by a worse hand, might fold a better one, might make someone who was going to bet anyway slow down.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

LOL.

sick spot.

the only hands i can see the CO call 2 cold there on the turn are A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K or KK, and i'm gonna assume mp isn't pulling this w/ less than a set (thoughts on this?) in which case you're drawing to 1 or 2 outs.

so I guess the best shape you can hope for in this monster is set over set and you should call closing the action to hit your 2 outer getting 27 to 1 but I wouldn't be very happy about it as a good chunk of the time you're drawing dead. I'd probably call just for sanity reasons in case the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] bombs the river and KKK scoops it.

I dunno, I'd probably end up paying off the river if it blanked just b/c if I somehow folded the winner in a 30 bb pot I'd probably off myself shortly after.

tough hand bro.

p.s. back in the states, hitting the pub atm but should be around later.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

Holy [censored] Man - how in the hell are you? Welcome home and thanks for the post.

Jeff

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

What hand can the 3 bettor have here that we outs against? I cant imagine your weighted outs are more than 1. I am assuming that MP guy will never do this with only the Ac. That said, Im certainly ok with lighting some EV on fire for the sake of sanity.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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LOL.

sick spot.

the only hands i can see the CO call 2 cold there on the turn are A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K or KK,



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I don't see why--the pot's so large they'd be justified in calling with virtually anything.

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and i'm gonna assume mp isn't pulling this w/ less than a set (thoughts on this?)



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He'd probably bet to protect his hand with virtually anything, again because of the size of the pot.

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in which case you're drawing to 1 or 2 outs.



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Or he has 2 pair, in which case you have 6 outs. Or he has a pair of sevens and is hoping someone will fold a pair of eights, or...

No reason to give anyone credit for a monster hand here.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

The way this has played out I don't see how CO doesn't have AcKx or KK like always. The turn c/3bettor should have a flush/set always as well. I am pretty sure I'd just fold now, but I don't think I could blame you for putting them both on a set and calling the turn. Then call the river again just in case.

BTW I raise flop without even thinking about it. Anyone folding anything is good for us at this point.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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On the turn, I would call and pray that the three better is getting aggressive with a pair and a flush draw like AcKd or has a set in which case you might have two outs to outdraw him for the win unless the other guy has a club or the made flush already.[ QUOTE ]


This holding wouldn't make much sense. There was no preflop raise from this MP player. Based on distribution AK is somewhat unlikely as we're putting the CO on AK or KK fairly solidly.

What sort of hand does he limp and then call two more bets back preflop and then jam this turn. 77 or 55 make a lot of sense as does an Ax[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] holding. Pot size would disincent a move here with just a naked A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he'd have to hold AQ or AJ for it to make much sense, both of which may have resulted in a preflop raise.

Despite Jeffage's read that he:

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who plays very well but is capable of making moves, playing very aggressively.

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with the benefit of consideration, I'd now change this to a fold though I'm sure in the moment that huge pile of chips would having me calling down.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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Anyway, game was loose and playing a bit wildly.

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and also getting 28:1 (wheres emerson when we need him)
id call down but id be cry cry crying the whole time

raise the flop it will help define everyones hand better
and most likely we'll just end up calling down from there
unless its CO who 3bets then id raise him again on the turn

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

Repost of the above due to butchered editing. I'd add that smaller suited connector clubs are also a possible MP holding...

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On the turn, I would call and pray that the three better is getting aggressive with a pair and a flush draw like AcKd or has a set in which case you might have two outs to outdraw him for the win unless the other guy has a club or the made flush already.

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This holding wouldn't make much sense. There was no preflop raise from this MP player. Based on distribution AK is somewhat unlikely as we're putting the CO on AK or KK fairly solidly.

What sort of hand does he limp and then call two more bets back preflop and then jam this turn. 77 or 55 make a lot of sense as does an Ax[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] holding. Pot size would disincent a move here with just a naked A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he'd have to hold AQ or AJ for it to make much sense, both of which may have resulted in a preflop raise.

Despite Jeffage's read that he:

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who plays very well but is capable of making moves, playing very aggressively.

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with the benefit of consideration, I'd now change this to a fold though I'm sure in the moment that huge pile of chips would having me calling down.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

yeah, ill. I think you have to call and hope that someone is pumping it up with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or trips. With 8 in on the flop the odds that someone is holding two clubs are probably around 25%; you can only improve with counterfeiting someone else's pair that doesn't give them a boat, or hitting your one-out-non-club-trips. Are you good enough 14:1 ? yeah, reckon. so call it down unless fourth club hits the river.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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I don't see why--the pot's so large they'd be justified in calling with virtually anything.


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do some hand reading. he capped preflop, bet the flop and turn on that board then called 2 cold after it went check/bet/raise/3bet, it's not like he's gonna have JJ here.

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He'd probably bet to protect his hand with virtually anything, again because of the size of the pot.


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95% of the time this is a huge hand trying to get value rather than some random bluff or 1 pair type hand trying to fold a better hand. I doubt he expects anyone to fold

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Or he has 2 pair, in which case you have 6 outs. Or he has a pair of sevens and is hoping someone will fold a pair of eights, or...



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not saying its impossible, but pretty unlikely but doesn't really matter either way since jeff should probably be calling the turn to make a decision on the river.

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No reason to give anyone credit for a monster hand here.

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dude, this is live. I doubt jeff expects to be ahead on the turn like ever.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

Best case scenario: your hand is second best. More likely, you come in third. Fold the turn.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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The way this has played out I don't see how CO doesn't have AcKx or KK like always.

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he could have AA too! maybe QcQx

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

I like raising the flop better than just calling, that being said, you didn't.

So now what to do with the situation we find ourselves in on the ck-re-raised and called turn? I think you have to fold. Unless the other players happened to flip their hands over and you know what they have, you are, at a minimum, drawing to 2 outs and more than likely, drawing dead. In combination, what hands could the two players have? In the interest of getting to a spot where we're drawing live, we have to put them on set over set, which is REALLY wishful thinking on our part and still leaves us with a slim draw. Also, putting the MP on a set goes against your read of him playing aggresively. He'd have pounded the flop and turn as hard as possible to protect his hand. The interesting part about this prediciment is we are up against two players. If it was just either one of them, I think it's a clear call, then call the river if bet into, but with a check-re-raise and THEN a call.....I just can't come up with a scenerio where we aren't drawing dead. AND.......you have to be willing to overcall the autobet and call on the river. "Danger Will Robinson, Danger Will Robinson".....sometimes you just gotta listen to the Robot.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

Well played. MP cold 3 betting the turn is at worst a straight. You're screwed.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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I think you can fold this turn. I know the pot is big but this guy is bluffing .0001% of the time. He's got a flush here way too often.

I prefer raising the turn, not b/c I'm worried about hand protection but b/c the turn card changes our equity so much and I don't want to invest a ton of bets on the flop to fold on the turn. Once the 4th club hits our hand is toast unless of course its the Ac.

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You can put me in the fold camp too on the turn. Live players always have it in this spot.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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do some hand reading.



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This is NOT THE TIME for hand reading. You're pot committed.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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do some hand reading.



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This is NOT THE TIME for hand reading. You're pot committed.

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On further thought...the worst case is getting sandwiched between two players with made flushes. In that case, it could cost not one or two but six more big bets to see the showdown, in the case that one of the opponents is dumb enough to continue the raising war without the nuts (which he may well be).

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

What happened?

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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This is NOT THE TIME for hand reading. You're pot committed.

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This is bad advice. A good player makes 1bb/hr live, if you can save a 2 bb's thats 2 hrs of work. This is a cop out line, you should always be thinking about what your opponent has and there are sometimes when you need to fold in big pots

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

good game!

You played this hand incredibly well up to this point... very nice job waiting for the turn to raise in this huge pot.

At this point, the pot is huge, and when a tight player makes a surprise cold-call preflop, I usually think AK / JJ type hand. In this case, I'd call the turn for sure. If the river is a non-club non-king, I'm calling again. If it's a club or a king, then I shake my head make a tough decision on the fly.

good luck.
Eric

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand happened in AC a few weeks ago - been away for a bit due to work commitments. 40-80.

Anyway, game was loose and playing a bit wildly. Five people limped to the cutoff, a loose/typical player who raised. I was on the button and looked down at A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] so I gave him the 120 treatment. The BB called two bets cold and (pretty shockingly actually) every other limper proceeded to call two bets more. The cutoff then capped, I of course called, and we took the flop eight ways for four bets.

The flop came down pretty ugly, K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Everyone checked to the cutoff who bet, I called and four others called. Six of us to the turn, 19 big bets in the pot.

The turn brings the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It's checked to the cutoff who again bets. I raise, and it's folded back to a MP player who plays very well but is capable of making moves, playing very aggressively. He now 3-bets which makes me a little ill. The cutoff now coldcalls two more bets so it's one more bet to me. Plan?

And what about the rest of the hand?

Thanks,
Jeff

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Good play by MP. I'd make that 3 bet with A7, or just A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You might get some genius to fold aces or kings. Play basic small stakes/big pot strategy. Modern TAGs love to make big lay downs. Throw in some bets. If a raise improves your chance of winning a 20 bet pot by even 10% its a great move. Getting you out likely increases his chances about 50%.

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

Guys, thanks for the good thread and sorry I've taken so long - I have been extremely busy lately. Sorry I can't respond to more posts.

I think raising the flop is probably a good idea because it does put everyone in the middle in a tough spot even though the pot is huge. I just didn't think people would fold much of anything in this game (any pair, decent club, gutshots, etc) and I felt that there were a ton of turn cards that could come that would make me wish I hadn't splashed on the flop. I just think in this game, and in a huge pot like this where people will not want to fold and that if I'm somehow winning my hand is tenuous at best, that waiting for the turn is probably better. I know that the preflop capper will lead again and I can see if anyone checkraises, etc.

Anyway...my thinking on the turn (after it's re-raised) goes something like this. I understand that it's unlikely that I'm good and that I could be drawing dead. But I'm getting 25-1 to call one bet and I thought there was more than a 4% chance that my hand is currently best. Look at it this way - if you're the solid aggro player and you flop a set or flush on this board in this pot, are you not going to bet and raise at every opportunity on the flop? Are you really going to check-call? Even the nut flush would probably spray right away. So what hands would he check-call and then check-three bet the turn? 75 is possible. An unconventially played flush is possible. I don't think a flopped set is very likely - after there is a bet and that many callers there is some non-zero chance that the turn will be checked through. Are you really taking the chance playing it this way if you flopped a set?

I think there is enough chance that he is making an aggro play with something like KQ with the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the preflop raiser could have AK with the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], ESPECIALLY when he doesn't cap the turn. I mean - if you have a set of kings, why not cap. The pot is huge, you could def be ahead, you put max pressure on the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and if you're losing, you can suck out.

So anyway, I don't think I could lay this down with no turn cap and one bet on a non-king, non-club river. So I didn't. More comments welcome.

Jeff

RESULTS
 

So as I alluded to in my last post, I called the turn 3-bet. The river blanked - something like a red deuce. Solid MP player bet, cutoff called and I called.

MP rolls over the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a turned set. CO then turns over KK for top set which I was pretty surprised he didn't cap the turn with. And I discarded my hand and listened to speculation about what I had for 10 mins or so before getting a huge salad in the cafeteria.

Jeff

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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When people are planning to checkraise the turn and someone raises before them some generally coldcall and some generally 3bet. your guy sounds like he's in the later group, for that reason you should call.

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V. good point.

Jeff

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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... I just didn't think people would fold much of anything in this game (any pair, decent club, gutshots, etc) ...

So anyway, I don't think I could lay this down with no turn cap and one bet on a non-king, non-club river. So I didn't. More comments welcome.

Jeff

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I think what's interesting here is not just what happened, but what didn't. Three players went to the river with only one club (the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) between you. All the action came not from people with powerful clubs but from people afraid of one. This goes to show:

<ul type="square">[*]You can never be completely sure the hand you're scared of is out there [*]Unless there was really only one club dealt among 8 players (unlikely), all that raising bought 8 outs. (Unfortunately, you bought them not for you but for the guy with the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].)[*]Anybody who folded a medium club like the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] made a big mistake.[/list]
If you'd been the guy with the 3's and a club came on the end, would you have folded to a bet?

Re: Large Pot With Aces
 

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I raise the flop and face the field with two bets. Obviously you don't fold out single high clubs or pairs, but the runner runner guys get lost and it's pure valuetown. This isn't a spot to wait for the turn given your relative position I think. I guess I call down given the big pot and your read.

-DeathDonkey

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accept i think it is clear ur beat and i'd fold the turn.