How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

Playing NL200, guy ran at around 65/35. Very bad. He'd bet every street until someone showed aggression. For example, I saw him 3B JJ pre-flop (from 8 to 64!!), then bet 3 streets when checked to w/ a KQx flop, ultimately losing $400 on the hand.

I had a hand with him where he called my PFR w/ Q8h out of one of the blinds. I called his flop donk, raised his turn, and put him AI on the river when he checked to me w/ a flop of AQx.

How bad he is really isn't the point, I guess. The thing that made me wonder a bit how to play him was the sizing of his pre-flop raises. If he opened, it would be anywhere in the neighborhood of $16-$24 (8-12 BB's). What sorts of hands do you like to play w/ him? Do you bother 3 betting pre-flop since it seems you can get all his money post-flop anyway? Remember that we can't wait forever since he'll bleed off all his chips relatively soon.

Here's a specific hand I had against him that confused me a bit.

SB 570.65
BB 342.85
Hero 566.40
CO 638.10
BN 278.35

Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to 8, 2 folds, SB raises to 50 total, Hero ??

He didn't seem to 3 bet pre-flop light at all. What do you like to do here? We're reasonably deep, so I wasn't sure what would be a good line.

Of course, I could just shove here and gamble it up, but there certainly will be better situations to get it all in against a guy like this.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

You have a premium hand against a maniac who hates to fold and will definitely call with worse = 4bet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

get all in preflop

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

That's so sick 300bb deep... but I still 4bet.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

all in, or as close to it as you can, preflop with TT+, AQ+. Postflop, all in with top pair.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

why not call and if you spike an A or K he stacks anyways. seems to be a waste to shove.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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why not call and if you spike an A or K he stacks anyways. seems to be a waste to shove.

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You flop an ace or king only 33% of the time.
What's your plan the other 66%?

Not 4betting here is so gross.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

Okay, so say we 4B pre-flop, and he calls (I'm gonna ignore the more obvious case of if he 5 bets pre-flop since we just get it all in there), what do we do on the flop if we don't hit? Do we call him down, likely having to get it all in to get to showdown? Do we get it all in if checked to?

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so say we 4B pre-flop, and he calls (I'm gonna ignore the more obvious case of if he 5 bets pre-flop since we just get it all in there), what do we do on the flop if we don't hit? Do we call him down, likely having to get it all in to get to showdown? Do we get it all in if checked to?

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this is pretty much what im saying. if we 4 bet here, i would rather just 4 bet shove.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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why not call and if you spike an A or K he stacks anyways. seems to be a waste to shove.

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You flop an ace or king only 33% of the time.
What's your plan the other 66%?

Not 4betting here is so gross.

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That sounds so horrible. Your strategy is basically to play pre-flop poker against an opponent whose flaw is playing badly after the flop.

Against this opponent, you want to see flops and decide on the flop if you want to call him down or not.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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why not call and if you spike an A or K he stacks anyways. seems to be a waste to shove.

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You flop an ace or king only 33% of the time.
What's your plan the other 66%?

Not 4betting here is so gross.

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That sounds so horrible. Your strategy is basically to play pre-flop poker against an opponent whose flaw is playing badly after the flop.

Against this opponent, you want to see flops and decide on the flop if you want to call him down or not.

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Uh...no.

You are advocating sacrificing a 2:1 edge preflop because you hope that you can get an even bigger post-flop edge.

That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Completely ignoring pre-flop equity just because you have a post-flop edge (even a big one) is pretty bad. Especially vs. a guy like this where you don't even need to worry about balancing your 4-bet ranges. Stick to premiums because he's never folding anyway.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

to people who want to get all in, we realise it's 300BBs deep right? And from the OP "He didn't seem to 3 bet pre-flop light at all."

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

I have seen more of these types of players and have the same question. The mistake I have been making is trying to get at their money before they lose it all as you stated. Playing hard preflop with AK is always a flip. Against this type of opponent I think ABC poker is the only profitable 'strategy'. He sees all your bets as bluffs so don't bluff, the truth is soooo hard to believe.

If you have more discipline/skill then flipping is bad imo against a maniac/drunk. He plays bad post flop therefore play well postflop. It really is that simple.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Uhhh... so AK is better than 77 because....?

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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You are advocating sacrificing a 2:1 edge preflop because you hope that you can get an even bigger post-flop edge.


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Please, show me where we have a 2:1 edge preflop here.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

I just call with position, this deep. Under-reps our hand a bit, he won't get away when we have him dominated. If we whiff and he bets, oh well, fold and on to the next hand.

Edit: never cbet a whiff, obv.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Uhhh... so AK is better than 77 because....?

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Dude, if you're going to be snide, you should try to be right.

Seriously? Assume his range is wide. Vs. a wide range, AK is a big favorite. Vs. a wide range, 77 is only a marginal favorite. If his range is wide, AK dominates far more hands than 77, and is dominated by far fewer hands than 77. I really have to spell this out?

If you get all in and he flips over AJ (or KQ, or AQ, or QJ), which would you rather have, AK or 77?

How about if he flips QQ or KK? Which one you want now?

Before you point out AA, I say,

a) wtf cares if you have 77 or AK vs. that hand
and
b) We have an A, so AA is less likely


So, 300BBs deep this is kind of sick, since I did not notice that OP says he doesn't 3-bet light.

But irrespective of this, I wasn't arguing whether to get all-in here, I was arguing against the general sentiment that you shouldn't worry about pre-flop edges vs. this guy simply because he sucks post-flop. Pre-flop edges can still matter a lot.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

I wasn't trying to be snide at all. Sorry you took that way. You answered my question. However, I would want to play post flop with this guy and push on made hands of 99 - AA preflop.

I thought you were arguing to get it all in with AK. Suppose he flips QJ or 99. does a skilled player want to risk deep stacks on 60/40s? I don't. 4 betting thinking opps is a much different game then drunk maniacs.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

We're going to experience some sick varience if we want to push this likely small edge for 300BB.

As others have said i would wait until i hit something before commiting 300BB's.

If he's as bad as op says then we have plenty of chance to get it in with a bigger edge this deep.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to be snide at all. Sorry you took that way. You answered my question. However, I would want to play post flop with this guy and push on made hands of 99 - AA preflop.

I thought you were arguing to get it all in with AK. Suppose he flips QJ or 99. does a skilled player want to risk deep stacks on 60/40s? I don't. 4 betting thinking opps is a much different game then drunk maniacs.

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Let's think in terms of average return per hand.

AK vs. QJ, you are a 65:35 favorite. On 100BBs, that's a return of 30BBs.

No way is your post-flop edge good enough to *average* a 30BB return, and you'd be insane to pass up that edge. Sure he stacks off light, but he still has to flop SOMETHING to keep going.

Of course, if you could see his cards, you'd do things differently (take a cheap flop with AK vs. 99, get all in with AK vs. QJ, etc). But you can't do that. It's just ranges. And if his range is very wide for getting it in pre-flop, AK is a premium with an edge that you simply should not pass up. 77 does not have a huge edge vs. a wide range and you'd rather take a flop cheap.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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And if his range is very wide for getting it in pre-flop, AK is a premium with an edge that you simply should not pass up. 77 does not have a huge edge vs. a wide range and you'd rather take a flop cheap.

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Given the OP's description, what do you think is the villain's range in this hand?

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

Couple of points:
(1) AK has a pretty big equity edge if we assume he is 3betting a lot of his broadway holdings. It wouldn't shock me if the guy is 3betting Ax with x going down pretty far (x = 9, x = 7s?). The wider you think his 3betting range is, the more you have to just get it in with AK.

(2) I'm completely mystified about the aversion to taking 60/40 flips. I assume that our hero is properly bankrolled and can rebuy if he loses. If this is live and he can buy-in up to 1/2 the big stack, he can immediately buy-in for $500 if he loses, so we don't sacrifice any future edge. If his next buy-in will be restricted to $200, then that gives some reason to pass on pushing very marginal edges. But you don't want to take that idea too far.

(3) It's irrelevant that the villain will "bleed off his chips relatively soon." If he does that before we get a good opportunity to put our money in, that's too bad for us. Yes, it does mean we will have to take some high variance gambles because we can't sit back and wait for AA, but otherwise it doesn't affect our decision at all.

(4) This is basically a math problem. For any given hand range you assign him, calculate your equity if you push preflop (assuming that he calls his whole range, which seems reasonble based on OP's description) versus taking a flop and folding if you don't flop an A, a K, or a monotone flop giving you a high flush draw plus overs. Again, you can assume that he's willing to get it all-in everytime you don't fold the flop.

I don't know the answer in advance, but you'll find that taking the flop fares better the higher the percentage of paired hands are in his 3betting range. The more Ax, Kx, suited connectors, etc. that you add to his range, the better pushing preflop becomes. It would be interesting to get a rough idea of where the cutoff is where pushing becomes better than calling. I feel pretty confident that calling is significantly better if his range is {22-AA, AQ}, but that getting all-in preflop is much better if his range is {22-AA, A8+, KT+, QT+}. (FWIW, the first range isn't completely ridiculous. Some bad players think that 44 is a better hand than AJ because it would win if no community cards were dealt.)

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

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(1) AK has a pretty big equity edge if we assume he is 3betting a lot of his broadway holdings.

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Given OP's read, I don't think that this is a good assumption.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

given your opponent's history, isn't that a pretty easy shove?

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

Let's get back to the question... Hero? I fold given the size of the 3 bet and being oop. Its $42 to CALL and I have invested $8. Had I invested more or he had 3 bet less I call or push. My inner nit thinks that there is no rush to get his money or push preflop with AK.

DEEP STACKS is what keeps screaming at me here. We have time to peel flops on this type of player. He will make a mistake (as evidence in previous hands). Unfortunately we have been put into the back seat a little and are forced to be weak/tight pre and push/fold post.

Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??
 

i think up to 150BB's we shove. above that and we call and get it in if we flop a pair