I have no clue how to play this
 

BB is a 60/13/1.7/30 donk. UTG is BigRob 20/17 TAG who I play w/ a lot.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($204.10)
SB ($402.90)
BB ($104.85)
UTG ($197)
MP ($45.80)
Hero ($215.05)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $22</font>

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

start by calling. proceed cautiously, maybe fold to a turn bet. problem here is that anything other than folding over-reps your hand by a good clip.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

every option i can think of seems like it sucks

fold - sucks because he's prob isolating the fish a lot
call - sucks because there's a pretty good chance BB will try to get it in, and playing the turn will still be difficult
3betting - i'd feel fine to play for stacks against BB, but felting w/ UTG here sucks imo. 3bet/fold seems really spewy.

eh, tough spot..not sure which of those is the best, but if he is isolating BB light enough, then i 3bet and expect him to fold sometimes?

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

i agree with early but i think call is the best option:

when bb 3bets and utg shoves we have an easy fold, when bb 3bets and utg folds we have a pretty easy call/shove imho

same goes for turn action imho, position will give us a lot of information

club = fold
blank, bb bets utg folds = get it in
blank, bb bets utg calls or shoves = fold
blank, bb checks utg checks = bet
blank, bb checks utg bets = fold

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Obviously a very tough spot...Don't have pokerstove on this CPU and I can't tell you exactly how 2 pair is up against a big combo draw with the T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

I fold like a nit here and let the BB stack off. If BigRob wasn't UTG then I think a call can be justified, then fold to a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K, or T.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

meh he's not really that passive after all

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($204.10)
SB ($402.90)
BB ($104.85)
UTG ($197)
MP ($45.80)
Hero ($215.05)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $22</font>, Hero calls $22, BB calls $16.

Turn: ($91) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $33</font>

OK, I didn't want to raise or fold so I called [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Now what? That's sort uv an odd bet by UTG. Looks like a blocker or the nuts. We're sure he doesn't have a set now, so could this be AK w/ a club? W/out a club?

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Why couldn't he still have a set?

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why couldn't he still have a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

cause he bet so weak on the turn its unlikely. he'd wanna get value/protect against [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s.

fwiw, I think I'd just shove over his turn bet

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why couldn't he still have a set?

[/ QUOTE ]it's soooo unlikely that he has a set here

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Not to say that I would know what to do with any amount of confidence in a spot like this on the flop, but don't you just get the feeling that you will ALWAYS face a turn bet by UTG? This board doesn't seem like the type of board that a TAG good reg would take a standard c-bet approach with and shut down. If he has something he will take you to your least favorite town and if he missed he will have to double barrel for his bets not to be a total spew (because people will call this flop with any high club /Ax/etc...). Just a thought.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Our cold call looks ridiculously strong here it's not like he's double barreling with air on any sort of frequency

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

i like your turn call

raise this weak bet and hope he doesn't have a flush

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

I wanted to raise the turn here cuz it seemed UTG had to have a flush or a weaker hand than me, but I chickened out and just called again which I think was horrible. BB called too and river was a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB insta pushed for his last $41. UTG folded, which pissed me off cuz my intstincts were correct on turn. I tanked and folded fwiw.

I felt dirty afterward for hacking this up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

UTG has got the royal flush fold.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

"Our cold call looks ridiculously strong here it's not like he's double barreling with air on any sort of frequency"

I agree that he is not doing this with any sort of frequency. My point is that I don't think he's c-betting this flop all that much at all with anything that he isn't double barreling (given his relative position and PF action). His flop bet alone is what scares me. The turn bet seems inevitable. Thus if I am calling this flop, why? Am I hoping to get to showdown? Am I looking to take it away from him on the turn? Is he really ever folding AQ+ here to us?

I probably raise the flop and fold to a reraise. If that doesn't come I hope to check the turn through. I am probably not putting any more money into this pot barring a J hitting.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

i think calling and raising the flop are both fine

i can't imagine how you do anything but shove the turn once you get there and he bets this vag amount

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

fold preflop.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hadn't noticed this but yes.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Personally, I think on flop folding&gt;calling&gt;raising. The only hand that UTG cbets (raises BB) here that doesn't have us crushed is QJ, AK w/out a club and he's probably gonna push AK w/ a club so it seems raising flop puts us in a crappy spot.

On turn, I have no clue what UTG bets like that barring a flush or AK w/ club.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Our cold call looks ridiculously strong here it's not like he's double barreling with air on any sort of frequency"

I agree that he is not doing this with any sort of frequency. My point is that I don't think he's c-betting this flop all that much at all with anything that he isn't double barreling (given his relative position and PF action). His flop bet alone is what scares me. The turn bet seems inevitable. Thus if I am calling this flop, why? Am I hoping to get to showdown? Am I looking to take it away from him on the turn? Is he really ever folding AQ+ here to us?

I probably raise the flop and fold to a reraise. If that doesn't come I hope to check the turn through. I am probably not putting any more money into this pot barring a J hitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point.

I guess my feeling is that when the 67vpip donkey leads the flop for 6 we should have his range for raising that crushed, I know I'm raising here with lots worse than two pair. If we three bet the flop I feel like we're vastly over-repping the strength of our hand and his calling (or shoving) range has us crushed and it seems a bit dirty to be turning two pair into a bluff on the flop.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hadn't noticed this but yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? What if villian's raising in MP or CO?

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate commenting about preflop in these thread but yeah my first thought was, three bet or fold. Vs rob I would most often three bet.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hadn't noticed this but yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? What if villian's raising in MP or CO?

[/ QUOTE ]

totally different situation then. i just figure that a regulars utg range with these stats don't include ATo. And since he's pretty tight, i don't think there's alot of EV even though we have position. Plus it's alot tougher trying to take advantage of a regular.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

as for the flop, i don't know...i think i just give it up and hate myself.

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

its not a cold call...

we called a continuation raise over a minbet, lets not get crazy now

Re: I have no clue how to play this
 

Flop is good. I would push turn given villains bet size.

Prelfop is ok. 3 betting sucks. Calling or folding is ok.