Sahara Tournament?
 

so, i was in Vegas last September and based on recommendations i'd read on this site, decided to play the Sahara 7:00pm tourney. you know, since it was in line with the size of my bankroll, and all (i.e. all $62 of it) *smirk*
well, i made it to the last 4 tables (of 16 starting), not too shabby a showing for my first time playing brick and mortar, if i do say so myself. i definitely got my money's worth just from the experience alone.
anyway, i was just reading a complaint on an allvegaspoker.com cardroom review that said some players were allowed to take their sweet time when moved to a new table, enough time to let the blinds go by. has anyone who has any experience at the Sahara tournament found this to be a problem? or is that tournament too small stakes for the twoplustwo crew?
i mean, it sounds like an angle-shoot, but does the cardroom management let it slide, or is this something that they normally prevent? when i played there, i was lucky the two times i was moved, because the blinds had just passed me, but it had never occured to me to deliberately move extra slowly.
one more question. allvegaspoker also says that the blind levels go from 1500/3000 to 3000/6000, which strikes me as a bit drastic, considering the praise i've read for the Sahara's structure. can anyone verify whether or not this is correct, or simply an error on the part of allvegaspoker.com? seems like they'd want a 2000/4000 level in there, but i only made it to the 1000/2000 level, so wasn't around long enough to see.
i need answers to these questions before deciding to play it again the next time i'm in Vegas. i've been itching to put some of the things i've been reading in HoH into practice.
if the Sahara's too dicey, i'd rather spend a little more and play the Caesar's tournament.
thanks in advance for any replies.
-t
"Harrington on Hold'em is okay, I guess." -- Annette Obrestad

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

I actually liked the Sahara tourney slightly better before they added chips to the starting stacks. Exactly because of the doubling of the blinds. In earlier rounds, the blinds don't double every time, but at some point along the way, they just give up on a reasonable structure and it starts doubling every round. With the previous smaller starting stack, that didn't seem to hit as hard...the play was actually mostly done by the time you got into the doubling-at-the-end stage.

Yeah, I've grumbled about the doubling. Answer is the usual "it already takes 6 hours to play". Which is true. It remains a lot of tourney for your $62. Imperfect it is, but I'm not sure there's a better bang for the buck.

People intentionally lollygagging to miss the blind when they move is a constant problem in EVERY tourney. Sometimes players will notice this happen and cause a stink, but it's pretty tough to prove.

When the tables are getting thin (down to 4ish) I've seen TD's stop the dealing at all the tables while we wait for the breaking players to join, and that way nobody gets to miss nuthin'. And a good in-your-face TD when he's balancing tables by taking a single player will typically tell the dealer about to receive a player "deal in the 4-seat next hand, I'm bringing you a player" and then go get the victim. Play stops until the victim arrives.

Sahara actually sometimes comes pretty close to doing this well. They have the dealers on break hanging around the room helping run the tourney, so it's kinda like having 3 floor people working the tourney instead of just 1. They don't do decisions, but they take care of keeping the tables balanced, and it seems like Sahara does a good job of keeping out the dealers who've never figured out the concepts of how you balance tables. Mostly.

I've actually seen a confrontation at Sahara over someone intentionally delaying when it was OBVIOUS. Player walks up, sees where the button is, and just instantly turns around and backs up and tries to blend into the wall. Right after the cards were dealt, he joins the table. Players screamed, and the floor did something about it...not sure but I think he just took the BB from him and put it into the pot.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

I've had good and bad experiences playing the Sahara tournies. I guess it all depends on who's running the show when you decide to play.

Personally, I don't think I'll be back there again too soon.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

Good review, Bav. I haven't played it for awhile, but I've always enjoyed the times I have. As you said, a lot of bang for the buck.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

I go and play that tournament probably once every 6 months or so. And everytime I regret that I did, even though i have won more money than I have lost playing it. Management is hideously indifferent to the tournament. I have seen the floor sit in a full live cash game while nobody runs the tournament. Tables get balanced only if a dealer on break happens to walk by at the right time. While there are a few good dealers there are many there who are terrible. I routinbely see dealers sit in the box and start a conversation with aregular, i don't mean they talk whiule they deal. I mean they talk first, when the conversation is over they start dealing. On one occasion a friend complained about a ruling that was in completely opposite of the posted rules and was told that the posted rules don't apply. I have always been suspicious of the ways the reentries get done. A player walks away from the table heads to the front deak then comes back to the same table and tells the dealer that they bought back in. They have no card, no receipt, nothing and the dealer gives them chips.

My very first time playing there though was the worst. You see some chuckle headed floor decided to accomodate everyone he was going to make the tournament 12 handed tables. Though I think that sucks, what was worse, was that he kept it 12 handed until the final table he would not go to 11 or 10 handed as the tournament was breaking down.

The payoff strcuture sucks. While i don't mind a top heavy payout, you need to shorten the number of people getting paid when you make it that top heavy.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]

The payoff strcuture sucks. While i don't mind a top heavy payout, you need to shorten the number of people getting paid when you make it that top heavy.

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That's why I always go for the chops when I make the FT (which has been more often than not... when I play it). If there's some knucklehead that's against the chop, I make sure to go on a full-scale assault to try and break him so the chop can be then made.

The payout is so top-heavy that you could pretty much chop it even 9-ways and everyone would get paid out more than, more often then not, 3rd place $$$. Plus at that point the M is so low that anyone wanting to keep going is wanting to play bingo.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there's some knucklehead that's against the chop, I make sure to go on a full-scale assault to try and break him so the chop can be then made.

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Are you serious?

You think that the chances of pulling a chop makes it +$EV to make -cEV plays against a player who does not want to chop?

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

lol, nah, not literally, but the players on a whole stiiiiiiiiiink and more often than not the non-chopper goes and donks off their chips anyway.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

Not only do the players stink, but also a bunch of the staff. Dealers like "Casey" ( I believe his name was/is), bridging the cards when shuffling, and the short ?asian? dealer constantly rolling the deck.

How does fred Masters not know/not give a [censored] about these things?

But I DO like the sammiches at break, though, e-coli or not.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

My $0.02:

1. The structure is one of the best for a $42 plus 1 $20 add-on. ALWAYS take the add on when you sit down! Against donkeys plus local rocks, you want the stack early.

2. There are no antes in this MTT, so it actually makes the middle levels better. However, it is a 4 hour MTT, so the later levels are push or fold for the most part.

3.. The mgmt is poor compared to most, but if you know the rules you can *usually* end up with the mostly correct ruling. Harassing the dealers (most of whom have been there awhile is -eV - try a cheerful approach).

4. Quite often, a dealer is the TD. Find out who it is if you have a table balancing issue.

5. How they move players to balance is a mystery to me. In one MTT, I was moved 4 times in the same level! I missed posting the SB or the BB for the entire level! Remember, its a $40 tourney, not the WSOP.

6. IMHO, this is one of the few Vegas MTTs where chopping is generally the right call. I'm pretty sure the level does go from 1500/3000 to 3000/6000. I have chopped 3-4 times for usually ~3-4th place money. One time I was the clear CL and refused an even chop. In about 10 hands, there were only 4 left and I said wtf and refused any chop to keep playing. Both the TD and the dealer were not really happy, but they did their job. What I figured was that the other old local had zero HU experience so my advantage was pretty obvious. I KO'ed him in 6 hands when my K-4 got it all in vs. his TT on a K high flop. (please note - this is NOT a brag but a single data point to support the case of not chopping when you think you have an edge.)

If you are going to "play up" skip the CP $200 and play the Venetian $185. Its a much better structure. Also, I think the PH low buy-in MTTs are comprable to Sahara's - just in a better poker room with better dealers and mgmt.

GL!

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

thank you everyone for your replies and feedback! you have given me a lot of food for thought.
when you say PH, you mean Planet Hollywood, right? i haven't read anything about their tournies.
thanks again, gang!
-t
"Harrington on Hold'em is all right, I guess." - Annette Obrestad

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

I thought it was a decent Low Limit Tourney when I played the 11AM in October.
We had 60 runners and I ended up chopping it 5 ways for $380 at the final table. The dealers and floor did a pretty decent job. If you want to play a NL MTT for under $100 I would do either this Sahara one or Planet Hollywood as they are pretty similar.
If you can afford a little more the next step up would definitely be Caesars($200) or Venetian($180)

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

My thoughts on the Sahara tournament are that you get a lot of bang for your buck. However, you have to realize that when they take out like a third of the money out of the payout, that overall the tourney is not exactly a winning proposition. Still, the players are generally bad, so that it can be EV neutral. I have seen dealers having to explain the rules over and over again to players. But again, please look at the payout and the number of players entering and do the math: the poker room takes out a huge chunk of money out of the payouts.

From what I have seen, chopping is the rule and considering you have been playing poker for 4-5 hours and you are in a push or fold situation the last few rounds, it seems to be the most rational choice.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was a decent Low Limit Tourney when I played the 11AM in October.
We had 60 runners and I ended up chopping it 5 ways for $380 at the final table. The dealers and floor did a pretty decent job. If you want to play a NL MTT for under $100 I would do either this Sahara one or Planet Hollywood as they are pretty similar.
If you can afford a little more the next step up would definitely be Caesars($200) or Venetian($180)

[/ QUOTE ]

In fairness all my experience has been at the 7 PM tourney, perhaps the day shift staff is better.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts on the Sahara tournament are that you get a lot of bang for your buck. However, you have to realize that when they take out like a third of the money out of the payout, that overall the tourney is not exactly a winning proposition. Still, the players are generally bad, so that it can be EV neutral. I have seen dealers having to explain the rules over and over again to players. But again, please look at the payout and the number of players entering and do the math: the poker room takes out a huge chunk of money out of the payouts.


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You guys keep harping on the "high rake". It's a low buy in tourney and overall the casino might make 25-40% in the rake from this tourney as they would if they had cash games going for the same amount of time/tables.

Basically, if a casino takes a rake of less than 10, they automatically lose money on every player that enters the tourney. Equipment costs, dealer costs, floor costs, drink costs, ect.. all factor into that $ amount. And not all of the so called "rake" is actually rake. You can ask how much of this the house actually takes and how much is a save for the staff.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts on the Sahara tournament are that you get a lot of bang for your buck. However, you have to realize that when they take out like a third of the money out of the payout, that overall the tourney is not exactly a winning proposition. Still, the players are generally bad, so that it can be EV neutral. I have seen dealers having to explain the rules over and over again to players. But again, please look at the payout and the number of players entering and do the math: the poker room takes out a huge chunk of money out of the payouts.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys keep harping on the "high rake". It's a low buy in tourney and overall the casino might make 25-40% in the rake from this tourney as they would if they had cash games going for the same amount of time/tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate the way AVP presents this info because it's misleading.

AVP shows the Sahara tourney is $42 with $14 taken out for a whopping 33% vig. 'cept 98% of player do the $20 rebuy, so it's $14 out of $62, which is 22.5%, and that includes the dealer toke.

Compare that to, say, Caesars 11pm tourney. $120, $30 vig for 25%. Or their 9am $65 tourney which takes $15 out for 23%.

Sahara is right in their pitching.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

Bav, you must have some ill will towards AVP. There is no where in my post did I mention anything about the way tourney details are listed on any site. I'm not sure why you'd bring it up as sort of an indirect attack against me or whatever your post was meant to do.

Onto the facts...


The thing is, it's not mine, or AVP's fault that some casinos give an "optional" add on that is basically a must take, or even a rebuy that is a may take. The information is streamlined as best as possible. But yet people keep coming down on AVP for listing it when it's the card rooms that word it and present it that way in reality. If it's not required, it is in fact listed as optional in the Details section of every tournament there.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bav, you must have some ill will towards AVP.

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Woawoawoa... back up a step.

I said I hate the way AVP displays the info.

That's it. That's all I said.

I LOVE AVP. It puts a lot of great info into an easy-to-access package. But I keep reading on 2+2, over and over, how Sahara has a 33% vig and how awful that is. When someone basically takes the list of tourneys and sorts by vig to weed out the really awful ones, Sahara gets unfairly punished.

I didn't instantly read something posted by Photoc and think "Ha! I'm gonna get that bastard." I read the post you were quoting and thought "ahah! I know where that misleading bit of info likely came from" and responded.

Mine was a post saying "Sahara's vig isn't so bad" not "AVP sucks".

And if it's true "people keep coming down on AVP", and "people" is "people in addition to bav", then accept it as constructive criticism. Fix it if you are convinced it should be fixed, ignore it if you wish but don't expect the commentary to stop.

Thicken thy skin, my friend. Running any service used by the public you're gonna get "feedback" you don't like. If you look for things to be pissed off about, you'll find 'em in everything you read. Sorry I tweaked a nerve.

Re: Sahara Tournament?
 

People need to realize that tournaments cost relatively the same no matter what the buy-in. If you want to play some small buy-in events you are going to pay a lot of juice. In the past tournaments existed to bring people into the room and the casino was willing to lose a little bit running them. With the growth of tournament poker (and the number of tournament only players) casinos have started trying to make money on their tournaments.