a frush against morons
 

FT 3/6

CO is a complete idiot (90/10/0.75 over 1k hands) although I haven't seen him do very much dumb aggresive stuff postflop. BB is a 55/20 moron.

(6 handed)
CO open limps, I jack it up with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], sb folds, bb calls

flop (6.5 sb) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
CO donks, I raise, bb calls, CO calls

turn 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check, check, check

river 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, CO raises, I....

Paused for a little while on the river here. Is calling or 3 balling best?

Re: a frush against morons
 

Calling and going for the overcall from BB probably nets you the same as 3-betting, since BB will most likely then fold if you 3-bet. This also has the benefit of not getting capped by CO if you are behind.

Re: a frush against morons
 

id call river pretty much no matter the players descriptions, what differing player profiles would make people do what?

also what do u guys think of the flop? always raise here? always raise if bb donks and CO calls? how about BB donks and CO folds? How do player descriptions figure into this decision?

Re: a frush against morons
 

I'd only 3bet if I think BB is a big enough moron to call 2 on the river, otherwise going for an overcall isn't too bad of an option here.

Re: a frush against morons
 

Heads up, I'd probably raise. But with two in, an overcall is fine.

Re: a frush against morons
 

You turned your cards up on the turn (checking through after no third flush card will put everyone onto the idea you're on the draw), then you raise the third flush card. It should be obvious to anyone what you have, a raise shouldn't get you any more chips unless they really are awful (I know a few players who would call two on this river with nothing, but they're few and far between).

Re: a frush against morons
 

I go for the overcall. We only have the 13th-nuts here and the CO is very passive.

Re: a frush against morons
 

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also what do u guys think of the flop? always raise here?


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I was wondering the same thing. Why raise? We probably have little to no FE and there's very little value in raising this hand vs a villain that is showdown bound. You're only isolating yourself. I'd overcall to let BB in with any 2.

Re: a frush against morons
 

Some reasons for raising this flop:

1. Folding BB's Qx, Kx, Ax (which he probably peels for one bet and folds for two) has got to be worth something on this flop. It's nice to have all of our pair outs when a Q K or A falls on the turn.

2. CO's donk here can easily be a straight draw or smaller flush draw, so if we fold BB we could have the best hand a nonzero portion of the time.

3. If we know CO is going to showdown regardless, we get to see the river for 1SB cheaper.

Still not sure if I like calling or raising the flop better, just throwing out some ideas.

Re: a frush against morons
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

also what do u guys think of the flop? always raise here?


[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering the same thing. Why raise? We probably have little to no FE and there's very little value in raising this hand vs a villain that is showdown bound. You're only isolating yourself. I'd overcall to let BB in with any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop because:

-The pot is decent sized (7.5 sb after CO's bet)
-You have great equity with the fd and two overcards (~50% against Qh6h for example and greater against non-made hands of course)
-If both call a flop raise, that's not really such a bad result (beacause of your equity)
-You may choose to take a free card on the turn (Often bet A/K turns though, but maybe not against these fellows)

As for the river, I'd usually go for an overcall on this board, but against these clowns I might just go to 3-town.

Re: a frush against morons
 

I like raising the flop in position in a multiway pot with 2 overcards and a flush draw.

Re: a frush against morons
 

Flop is a clear raise if bb donks and CO calls, but with I think you gain more value by keeping bb in. Also, by raising the flop, you kill your implied odds.

Re: a frush against morons
 

I think Solid P made some pretty good arguments for raising

If the flop hadnt been paired I'd say its a no brainer.


Even with a paired board I think its a raise.

If you can get BB to fold KQ you actually gain a lot of FE on a Q, K, A turn. Of course if one of those cards paired BB you wont pick up the pot.

If it stays 3-way you can still opt for the free card.