fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Villain is HenryII. I don't have much of a read on him otherwise as we don't have much personal history. But he runs at 22/16.7/3.70. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $1,851.00
BB: $272.00
UTG: $1,048.00
Hero (BTN): $995.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $35.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $125.00</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $90.00

Flop: ($265) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $220.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $220.00 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $265.00 ($2 Rake)

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Um push?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Not much sense in three betting pre if you plan to simply muck on a 5 high board.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Um push?

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Thanks for the insighfulness. This is AA/KK (or big hearts) a lot imo. I've shown a LOT of strength and he donk bets into me almost full pot.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Not much sense in three betting pre if you plan to simply muck on a 5 high board.

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LOL. Usually the plan isn't for the caller to bet right into you either. What kind of comment is this?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

i dont think AA/KK cold calls a 3bet and then donks very often

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Why in the holy heavens would someone do this w/ 88 or some other hand I beat? Conceivably he has 6x of hearts or big hearts, and i'm racing. This is rarely total air imo.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose.

However, you do have an overpair 4 handed vs. an aggro player.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

1) If you're sure that this is AA/KK/big hearts, and that no way in holy heavens would someone do this with "88" etc, not much reason to post asking for advice, is there?

2) Comment is a good one and entirely valid. If you're going to three bet pre and not take into account the texture of the board, but simply base a decision on whether or not you get lead into, you may as well play without looking at your cards. You have no previous history with this guy to indicate that he'd raise/call a three bet pre and then donk the flop OOP?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Tank and shove. If he got you beat, take a note.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose.

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i agree with this. I think if villain has hearts his standard play is to crai. He's gotta think he has more FE with a c/r than with a lead, so I don't see why he'd be doing this with a drawy type hand. In my experience, both seeing and using this play, the lead is generally a big hand hoping that you'll shove over top.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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1) If you're sure that this is AA/KK/big hearts, and that no way in holy heavens would someone do this with "88" etc, not much reason to post asking for advice, is there?

2) Comment is a good one and entirely valid. If you're going to three bet pre and not take into account the texture of the board, but simply base a decision on whether or not you get lead into, you may as well play without looking at your cards. You have no previous history with this guy to indicate that he'd raise/call a three bet pre and then donk the flop OOP?

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Do you play 5-10? do you play against tricky opponents? I obviously posted this b/c I was confused - and I felt WEAK folding (hence the subject heading). But blanket statements like "no point in 3-betting w/ JJ if you are going to fold on a 5-high board" don't help me whatsoever.

Your post implies that this is an easy push. I really don't see how that is the case. what kind of cards do you see a competent player making this move with that I am ahead of - besides maybe 10-9 of hearts or something. AA or KK and this is the easiest shove of all time. but JJ is a different story.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose.

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Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

u r rite sir.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose.

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Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite?

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This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. He KNOWS (though we don't have tons of history) that I am aggro and am gonna cb any flop 80%+ of the time. So why lead other than to incude a shove?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

I'm quite certain I do in fact play against tricky opponents at your levels, champ. Interestingly enough, on 2p2 which is chock full of brilliant responses such as HAHAHAHAHA SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE PWNAMENTS OBV SHOVE SPOT HAHAHAA, you chose to claim that MY commentary doesn't help you at all. Intriguing that you posted it b/c you were "confused" - you've responded several times within an hour that you have him on a set hand range and that he can't have anything you beat. Doesn't seem like you're all that confused to me.

Your opponent can never have 99/TT here? The aforementioned T9 of hearts etc? Air? I'm not sure why you think AA/KK are so prevalent, think he plays them like this?

And the point about preflop play is valid. Not every hand is going to be a walk in the park for you where he calls and then hands the pot to you on the flop. If you can't proceed when you get bet into on a pretty good board for your hand, don't 3 bet pre.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Um push?

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Thanks for the insighfulness. This is AA/KK (or big hearts) a lot imo. I've shown a LOT of strength and he donk bets into me almost full pot.

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He's 22/16 not 17/12, and I see this donk as weakness unless I have previously seen otherwise.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Why in the holy heavens would someone do this w/ 88 or some other hand I beat? Conceivably he has 6x of hearts or big hearts, and i'm racing. This is rarely total air imo.

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Because if he donks 88 you find a fold w/ op's up to JJ apparently.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose.

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Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite?

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This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. He KNOWS (though we don't have tons of history) that I am aggro and am gonna cb any flop 80%+ of the time. So why lead other than to incude a shove?

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Be careful to not level your self on hands like these, these seem like some far fetched assumptions to make without additional information.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Tank and shove. If he got you beat, take a note.

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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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I'm quite certain I do in fact play against tricky opponents at your levels, champ. Interestingly enough, on 2p2 which is chock full of brilliant responses such as HAHAHAHAHA SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE PWNAMENTS OBV SHOVE SPOT HAHAHAA, you chose to claim that MY commentary doesn't help you at all. Intriguing that you posted it b/c you were "confused" - you've responded several times within an hour that you have him on a set hand range and that he can't have anything you beat. Doesn't seem like you're all that confused to me.

Your opponent can never have 99/TT here? The aforementioned T9 of hearts etc? Air? I'm not sure why you think AA/KK are so prevalent, think he plays them like this?

And the point about preflop play is valid. Not every hand is going to be a walk in the park for you where he calls and then hands the pot to you on the flop. If you can't proceed when you get bet into on a pretty good board for your hand, don't 3 bet pre.

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I never said I was "sure" that I was ahead, and I am legitimately confused. I was rationalizing my fold (rightly or wrongly). In any event I will ask you what type of competent player is going to lead into a pf 3-bettor w/ 99 here? Or, in the alternative, can you list all the hands that a player would donk into me here that I'm beating - when he KNOWS i'm aggro and will shove over the top quite often.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

He may be firing into you for reasons already mentioned, he's looking to induce a bluff/shove from your missed AK/AQ etc. Or, he has previous info on you that suggests he can fold out hands like marginal overpairs. If thats the case, his range includes plenty of air and certainly includes 88 thru TT.

You are also "beating" heart draws, although almost all of these will consist of AhKh/AhQh or combo draws.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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He may be firing into you for reasons already mentioned, he's looking to induce a bluff/shove from your missed AK/AQ etc. Or, he has previous info on you that suggests he can fold out hands like marginal overpairs. If thats the case, his range includes plenty of air and certainly includes 88 thru TT.

You are also "beating" heart draws, although almost all of these will consist of AhKh/AhQh or combo draws.

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right? And how often can you say he has pure air here - taking into the fact that he knows i'm very aggro? At this point you are almost conceding that this is NOT an easy push - as you concede that i'm only beating air or 88-TT (and those pairs seem HIGHLY unlikely).

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right?

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nonono

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Villain is HenryII. I don't have much of a read on him otherwise as we don't have much personal history. But he runs at 22/16.7/3.70. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $1,851.00
BB: $272.00
UTG: $1,048.00
Hero (BTN): $995.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $35.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $125.00</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $90.00

Flop: ($265) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $220.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $220.00 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $265.00 ($2 Rake)

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wtf. dude, just think for onesecond here. do you think he just MAY be with an overpiar under your JJ? or maybe draw+overs?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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He may be firing into you for reasons already mentioned, he's looking to induce a bluff/shove from your missed AK/AQ etc. Or, he has previous info on you that suggests he can fold out hands like marginal overpairs. If thats the case, his range includes plenty of air and certainly includes 88 thru TT.

You are also "beating" heart draws, although almost all of these will consist of AhKh/AhQh or combo draws.

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right? And how often can you say he has pure air here - taking into the fact that he knows i'm very aggro? At this point you are almost conceding that this is NOT an easy push - as you concede that i'm only beating air or 88-TT (and those pairs seem HIGHLY unlikely).

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fine Irish, your line is standard. nice fold.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

lol @ folding.

Unless you have a specific read that he has AA/KK here 99% of the time, this is a snap shove.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

dont really get why he would play AA/KK in this manner...i would typically shove.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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dont really get why he would play AA/KK in this manner...i would typically shove.

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i'm not worried about AA/KK as much as I am a set

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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Um push?

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Thanks for the insighfulness. This is AA/KK (or big hearts) a lot imo. I've shown a LOT of strength and he donk bets into me almost full pot.

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You rr'ed a CO open from button, that doesn't show any strength in particular.

Some people do this as a bluff, some do it as a ploy to induce shoves, and if they do then they probably do it with worse hands than yours as often as better.

You have one of the strongest hands in your range and you don't know what he has. Go all in.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right?

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nonono

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so 88, is leading HOPING to get shoved on just "assuming" i have AK for no reason whatsoever, and w/ absolutely no information whatsoever.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

yep

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right?

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nonono

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so 88, is leading HOPING to get shoved on just "assuming" i have AK for no reason whatsoever, and w/ absolutely no information whatsoever.

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I would do this with 88-TT quite often, not necessarily on this board.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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He may be firing into you for reasons already mentioned, he's looking to induce a bluff/shove from your missed AK/AQ etc. Or, he has previous info on you that suggests he can fold out hands like marginal overpairs. If thats the case, his range includes plenty of air and certainly includes 88 thru TT.

You are also "beating" heart draws, although almost all of these will consist of AhKh/AhQh or combo draws.

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right? And how often can you say he has pure air here - taking into the fact that he knows i'm very aggro? At this point you are almost conceding that this is NOT an easy push - as you concede that i'm only beating air or 88-TT (and those pairs seem HIGHLY unlikely).

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fine Irish, your line is standard. nice fold.

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I have difficulty understanding the extreme sarcasm, and it really makes me not want to bother posting hands at all. I posted b/c i was lost, and am stating my thought processes for purposes of discussion. Granted he could be bluff-stabbing w/ air...or 88, but I really thought he WANTED me to push. and I think its pretty damn close w/ JJ, as i'm behind any combo draw or any bigger pair. But maybe i'm way off base - it was just my read at the time. Obviously a lot of people vehemently disagree.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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yep

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why? (i'm being serious). He has to give me some semblance of credit for a bigger pair sometimes - it seems like suicide... but maybe CO v. btn its not terrible, i just don't think i'd ever use this move. You are basically praying that he has AK or AQ (or JJ apparently, heh). AND AK doesn't have terrible equity on that board either - just seems like a very odd "inducer". Do other people use this move?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

what % of his range do you think are sets?

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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what % of his range do you think are sets?

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i'm interested in this, and also how anybody's thoughts change if the board is something like 763hh or 873hh, something like that

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

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yep

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why? (i'm being serious). He has to give me some semblance of credit for a bigger pair sometimes - it seems like suicide... but maybe CO v. btn its not terrible, i just don't think i'd ever use this move. You are basically praying that he has AK or AQ (or JJ apparently, heh). AND AK doesn't have terrible equity on that board either - just seems like a very odd "inducer". Do other people use this move?

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i've seen it a lot with weakish hands that can call bluff-shoves but cannot shove over bluffs without totally spewing all over the place. i think it's an awful play on this board with 88, but i wouldn't be surprised if it was that hand.

btw i think like 10% of his range are sets, maaaybe.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

Mafia,

Are you taking the results of this hand to justify your points?

AA/KK seem unlikely given line. Thus you lose to a set and QQ and even less likely to AA/KK. You beat pretty much every other reasonable hand and your range is still fairly wide given that all you have done is 3bet preflop. Jam and take a note if he shows up with better then you here. End of story.

Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
 

i have been swayed. i'm in the shove camp now because he's got a smaller overpair a lot.