50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Villain 26/20/5, 66 hands. I have only been sitting maybe 20 hands, but this is the second time he has 3b me. I folded maybe an AJ or 77 type hand first time. With so few hands and so little history at the table, I think the safest working assumption is that he has a good hand each time.

.................................

I wrote a long bunch of questions about this blah blah blah. Bascially it boils down to: wtf am I doing here preflop and on flop?

I am stumped by all the different ranges at issue: his 3b range (wide), his range for calling/shoving a preflop 4b (narrow) and his cbetting range (?).

(Fwiw, I tanked a long time preflop - a thinking player may well interpret this as my exact hand. Dunno).

................................

Converter at Talking-Poker

Button Hero ($49.25)
SB ($52.25)
BB ($57.15)
UTG ($72.95)
UTG+1 ($22.40)
CO ($39.25)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, SB raises to $7.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $5.25.

Flop (16.50) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets $15.00, Hero...

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe one that is not so suited and connected with less high cards that could make sets?

I think this is a terrible flop and would well consider folding.

+EV

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

since you're ip i think calling is fine. oop i'd either shove or fold.

shoving has its merits, i.e you dont have to fold the best hand when you miss and he cbets, you get to see all 5cards etc

his calling range is fairly narrow but because of positions and his recent 3bet hes prolly more likely to look you up. prolly has a range of TT+ AQs+ ako+ for calling a shove, maybe not TT or AQ.. but i def cant see him folding JJ+ or ak.

you're a 60/40 dog if you shove and give him a tight calling range. However you're almost certainly ahead of his 3betting range.

as played on the flop im def not folding here. we're either calling to allow him to continue bluffing, or shoving. i'd prolly just shove since its so likely hes 3betting 'light', draws are more a part of his range

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

depending on the player, your reverse implied is through the roof, so maybe fold preflop? his 3bet range has to be narrower than normal out of the sb, i just think you're going to hit and pay him off too often. As played I fold the flop

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

If SB is decent he is leading the flop with any two cards (I'm not saying he can have any 2 after 3betting preflop, I'm just saying that AFTER 3betting he will be leading the flop regardless). You have TPTK. A 26/20 could have AA KK JJ TT AK AQ AJ(sometimes) and sometime weaker stuff if he thinks you were raising light.

I call this turn and shove most turns. You have the best hand here A LOT, although I don't think shoving the flop gets action from anything you beat. This flop isn't really the nightmare people are making it out to be.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks. I'll just fold preflop next time.

Problem solved.

Awesome.

/thread

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

LOL folding preflop.

flop is tough to raise or call. obviously the more likely he is to be 3 betting light with hands drawy hands the more we are going to want to raise. Given your reads I would edge towards a call here, but if he continues to press it's gonna be a tough spot. prolly pitch to a 2/3+ turn betzoid.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

lately I've just been making "thin" valueshoves here. Sometimes people even fold retarded crap (some dude fold KK on a J83hh board rr'd pot versus my button?)

No idea if this is right or not but generally when I call I tend to just call all in/shove turn anyways so whatever.

and yea if ur not comfortable shoving here then fold pre.

edit: As bozzer alluded to I'm usually in the spot where people are reraising my button opens light. If they're not I'd call more often. I'd assume that is the case even here.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks. I'll just fold preflop next time.

Problem solved.

Awesome.

/thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, my wording was bad, sorry if it came off harsh. I was trying to say that you have to be willing to continue (that's what I meant by "play") the hand hitting TPTK when you're making the call preflop.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to shove preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

As played OP,

This flop sucks, you are really ususally chopping here at best, I cant see a ton of +EV here. Ill fold this.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to shove preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

As played OP,

This flop sucks, you are really ususally chopping here at best, I cant see a ton of +EV here. Ill fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be more likely to shove OOP, but even in position that's a legitimate option. However, aren't the hands that will call your preflop shove exactly the hands that kill you on this flop? As opposed to the wider part of his 3-bet range that still c-bet this flop where you are ahead?

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

I've found that shoving AK preflop to 3bets is burning money at 50NL fwiw.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Dis,

As part of shoving AK PF im also doing it fairly often with AA-QQ, to balance the strategy. You do make a point but your equity if dominated pf is >> than equity if dominated post flop.

If villain is calling with AA-QQ, AKs himself to the shove (and people do call less, this is just an example), your equity is much greater against that range at this time than on a Kxx board, which you should be stacking off on with AK in a 3 bet pot.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Emc - the thing I hate about 4betting/shoving AK preflop is that ppl at 50 tend to 3bet really tight so a lot of the time I found myself against QQ/AK type range. I just don't rlly have a need for that kind of variance. I don't think I've ever pushed AK pre and saw AQ.

I generally don't start 4betting when someone is 3betting me light either because I think I have an edge in the 3bet pots (and more importantly I want to learn how to play them well).

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

there is no way that this sb (26/20/5) is solely on qq+, ak here. i know it's nl50, but come on - hero is isolating a limper from the button and a reasonably aggro opponent came over the top. i'm with emc and will usually 4b/4bshove.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Well, if villain has AA, KK, QQ, or KQ (without considering a chance at a straight or flush if he was reraising with like some JTs stuff) you are dead to rights. Are you sure this is a good flop? I think its pretty nasty.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is no way that this sb (26/20/5) is solely on qq+, ak here. i know it's nl50, but come on - hero is isolating a limper from the button and a reasonably aggro opponent came over the top. i'm with emc and will usually 4b/4bshove.

[/ QUOTE ]

its like 30 hands man. Thats nothing.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dis,

As part of shoving AK PF im also doing it fairly often with AA-QQ, to balance the strategy. You do make a point but your equity if dominated pf is >> than equity if dominated post flop.

If villain is calling with AA-QQ, AKs himself to the shove (and people do call less, this is just an example), your equity is much greater against that range at this time than on a Kxx board, which you should be stacking off on with AK in a 3 bet pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely a good point about shoving AK so that people won't put you only on QQ+ or KK+. But, against QQ+ and AKs, your equity is actually better on a Kxx flop than preflop, where xx are rags. On this particular flop, your equity is terrible against QQ+,AKs -- but of course his range is considerably wider than that here.

Back to a general Kxx board, though, compared to equity preflop vs. a tight range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

287,667,072 games 0.005 secs 57,533,414,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.763% 59.96% 06.80% 172498836 19557456.00 { QQ+, AKs }
Hand 1: 33.237% 26.44% 06.80% 76053324 19557456.00 { AKo }


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

100,980 games 0.005 secs 20,196,000 games/sec

Board: Kc 4d Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.699% 39.46% 05.24% 39848 5289.50 { QQ+, AKs }
Hand 1: 55.301% 50.06% 05.24% 50553 5289.50 { AKo }

And, just for grins, here's the result I came up with on this particular flop vs. a 3-betting range that may even be too narrow (he's 3-bet hero twice in 66 hands, but then again he is making the continuation bet)....

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

72,270 games 0.005 secs 14,454,000 games/sec

Board: Qc Kh 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.320% 30.05% 04.27% 21715 3088.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 65.680% 61.41% 04.27% 44379 3088.00 { AcKd }

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

I disagree. Villains actions cause hero to readjust his view on how to play the hand.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Villains actions cause hero to readjust his view on how to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely his actions cause us to readjust, but which actions? The 3-bet? The c-bet? What's his range after the c-bet?

I'm OK with my range being too wide, by the way, but I also think it's pretty rare for an aggressive player to check the flop after 3-betting the flop, and in fact, against an aggressive player, I'm more prone to think the flop hit him really hard if he checks.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Thanks for great replies.

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Villains actions cause hero to readjust his view on how to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is exactly what confused me in this hand. I count at least 4 different ranges to consider:

1. Villain's pf 3b range
We all agree it's quite wide.

2. Villain's range for calling/shoving over a preflop 4b
But this range is narrow - {AK, QQ+}. Maybe JJ 15% of the time he has it or something. This is why I agree with Check the Nuts - I never see a call from AQ here, and we are well behind a {AK, QQ+} range even allowing for dead money. So I call without firmer evidence he is being cute. Generally IP, I will only shove if I think villain is getting way out of line 3b'ing.

3. Villain's cbetting range
This is, let's say, NEARLY as wide as his pf3b range. But the cbet size REALLY stumped me. I mean, $15 > $16 pot? That is very very odd IMO (unless I am reading too much into it!). Dunno, seems to me I would have been more willing to shove over a $12 or $13 bet. Maybe that's dumb.

4. Villain's range for calling a flop shove
Bah. If we get called we are dead or chopping IMO. So maybe the question is: how often, given preflop and flop, is villain's range {JJ-, air, AK not cc} and how often is it {AK, QQ+, KQ}.

I just could not seem to reconcile all these ranges as the hand played out. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. So I folded like a pathetic nit on the basis that I had not much money invested. Lame.

..................

@ Disconnected: No problem. Sorry, I get too grumpy on these forums too quickly.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

o.k I'll read the discussion l8er and reply as it seems interesting but grunching 1st:

preflop std range JJ+, AK vs an unknown, he's 3bet u twice so no real 3betting history e.t.c

on the flop we're chopping with AK at best or a bluff JJ/TT or AQ on this flop. If I knew his range was wider I might call the flop bet here but I think folding is fine. If we get AI and get called we're chopping @ best, if we make them fold [I think our FE is low given preflop->flop action] we win a 3bet pot so risk/reward I fold.


BTW I fold AKo to 3bets with no 3betting history unless they're droolers, 4bet/shove or fold preflop.
On a dry flopper less broadway I often felt here.in 3bet pot.

[/nittiness]

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

grunch

shove preflop unless villain is a nit. Readless certainly shove given your position and 100bb stack

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Shove preflop. all the rest becomes so easy.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

I fold AK to pre-flop 3bets all the time at NL50.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.870% 30.56% 12.31% 18835139 7591111.50 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 57.130% 44.82% 12.31% 27625582 7591111.50 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
</pre><hr />

I shove vs. short stacks or once I have identified an opponent as a light 3bettor. I need more than 30 hands for that usually.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

I think shoving AK pre against a relative unknown adds a ton of unecessary variance at this level. At least at FTP $50, there are so many better spots to get all your monies in. Given villians stats and the fact that you have no specific read on his 3 betting tendancies, I think its better to fold pre flop rather than call off over 10% of your stack, even in pos.
If you are willing to call this much pre with AK, I think you need to be willing to play for stacks once you catch a flop like this one.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold AK to pre-flop 3bets all the time at NL50.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.870% 30.56% 12.31% 18835139 7591111.50 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 57.130% 44.82% 12.31% 27625582 7591111.50 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
</pre><hr />

I shove vs. short stacks or once I have identified an opponent as a light 3bettor. I need more than 30 hands for that usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trig, folding AK pf in this spot is a decent-sized mistake. I'm not awake enough to back that up I'm afraid, but I 100% never fold given positions and reads.

I also don't like shoving - maybe I just run bad but the varience I get from doing this is massive. from the numbers i did it's like a couple of dollars of +EV, but obviously big swings.

Calling is standard and fine. You *usually* need to play for stacks when you hit, but this is definately one flop you can pull back from dive bombing.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

Boz,

Against the range I proposed you will often hit and be behind. This is why calling is really bad. (Think RIO.) Raising is fine if our opponents have a wider range than what I proposed. (My Pokerstove numbers show that without that wider range we are -EV.)

Calling would theoretical be fine against such a wider range, too, but at NL 50 and below it requires reads to put someone on such a range.

Edit: Still talking about 100bb opponents. Vs shorties the gloves are off.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

so we are getting 2-1 pot odds, so our showdown equity is good enough to call.

i disagree that we are in a RIO situation.

1) we're in position which really helps with the RIO/IO situation obviously

2) if we hit our equity against TT+,AQ+ is approx 72% and depending on the board the calling range might be that wide (mostly not admittedly).

3) his range is not that narrow - AJ could be in there for instance.

OOP against a tight player 3betting, you have a point.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

How many times have you seen him 3bet pf (not just 3bet you)? If he was getting out of line at all or if I had a crappy image I would 4bet and obv call push. The sample is very small, but you should have some idea just how active he is and how much "play" he's been giving postflop.

You 4bet this hand bc most a lot of people will fold TT/JJ and we're technically behind these hands. Also, if he's 3betting light its just a simple valuebet where we take down a medium size pot uncontested (ie free monies).

I'd probably shove this flop honestly. So many people feel that they have to win every 3bet pot that I'll felt TPTK on this "scary" flop. Also, half these morons just pot any flop after they 3bet.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
i disagree that we are in a RIO situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the following:
<ul type="square">[*]If the flop contains an A, which hands in his range will put much money in?[*]If the flop contains a K, which hands in his range will put much money in?[*]If you miss, will you be ahead of his range?[/list]Face it, if you hit your hand only AA,KK,AK will put substantial money in. A range that has you crushed 20:80. Of course some donkey will stack off with JJ occasionally but we are not talking about players we have such reads on.

If you miss you are behind 30:60 because high pairs are such a big part of his range. But notice you actually have better chances of winning the hand if you fail to make top pair.(!)

This is almost the classic RIO situation. You have a hand that will not make you money if ahead and will lose you a lot of money if you are behind.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

shove it

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

I agree with Triggerle about the domination aspect-consider a step down and AQ then.

In a 3bet pot vs ok player on an ace high or queen high board what do you beat?

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping for when you call his preflop 3 bet? If you can't play this flop, then I think you need to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks. I'll just fold preflop next time.

Problem solved.

Awesome.

/thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if your stuck on this flop you should certainly fold preflop.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

OP: How often are you willing to shove favourable flops over his c-bet if you miss? Isn't that where the benefit of calling 3-bets in positions lies given you don't have enough of a stack to float with? If you aren't willing to do this I can't possibly see why you don't 4-bet small/fold.

Somebody please educate me because I have a lot of difficulty with this spot too and I just end up folding to 3-bets a lot because I have no idea how to play when I miss and most opponents are so passive at 25/50NL I rarely stack them when I do hit anyway.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if your stuck on this flop you should certainly fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

corsakh, with respect mate, I'm really not sure why people keep saying this. There are several respected uNL regs in this thread disagreeing about just about every aspect of this hand pre and post - I really don't think the issues are simple at all, and I certainly don't think flop decision is so obvious as you suggest at all.

.................

Would be great to hear thoughts on this hand from AJ or Isura or DanB or Matt or Sunny or...

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

This is a very simple case. What you preflop is not very important, it depends on your playstyle. If you think he is tight, just call and see the flop. If you think he 3bets light, you can either 4bet because you are certainly ahead of his range or you can call to get decent value from AQ and KQ. Both options are viable, I dont see any disagreement here.

But, if you call someones 3bet preflop and you hit what you wanted to hit - I cant possibley see any justifiable discussion 100deep.

Re: 50NL: AK 101 for the millionth time
 

hey chomp,

I'm in the 4betting camp here. esp as you opened on button and he's got aggro stats and he's 3bet you before.

I normally just mash the pot button here, but I guess just shoving is OK too. The great thing about having AK here is that it lowers the chances he has AA/KK. and every other hand we're flipping with.

Giving his a "getting all in preflop" range of QQ+/AK, then we need him to fold 42% of the time. You guys will know if this is likely or not. I personally think it is given the situation and if you give him a 3betting range even as tight as AQ+/TT+, then thats easily more than 42% he's folding. Add in a few light 3bets etc and I think this becomes a trivial 4bet preflop.

As for the flop, I guess to be on the safe side, you can just fold, but once you have some reads, this could become a pretty easy shove