nl600 vs. 2er
 

I have been fairly aggressive preflop at this table. I have c-bet most of the time or sometimes floating a flop and raising the turn and haven't seen more than one or two showdowns. That has been going fine.

Within the last few rounds though, villian has played back at me twice. I've missed the flop completely those times and folded.

Villian is a 2er and seems to be good. Until the last couple times he's been pretty TAG. I have no idea if he's been making moves on me or if he hit a couple hands.

Now this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($533.05)
BB ($1015.60)
UTG ($1538.05)
Hero ($481)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($39) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $90</font>, BB calls $60.

Turn: ($219) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I think you have to bet/fold this turn. Looks like he fired a total bluff or has a big club. I've been playing nl full time for 1 month and Ive seen players make moves on 3 suited boards a ton. Thats my take on the situation. Besides if you check its going to be a hard spot for you on the river if he fires a big bet.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure. If he has a worse hand, I've got more money in good. If he has a better hand, I put money in badly. I was just thinking he likely didn't have much, but probably overs and it would be good if he folded.

edit: I think there's virtually no chance he checks down, so do you think I am calling him down, check-folding, or making a move on his turn or river bet?

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

May as well flip your hand face up for him to play the rest of the hand. Think about it.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
May as well flip your hand face up for him to play the rest of the hand. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could well be wrong, but I'll raise other hands that I'll play there. I'll certainly raise 2-pair or trips. A very strong draw/combo draw I'll raise and look to either get it all in on the flop or turn.

edit: I could also easily be raising with air.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

raising the flop is def not bad

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
May as well flip your hand face up for him to play the rest of the hand. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 88.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I'm assuming our opponent is decent and think we're relativly solid. When we raise that flop, a large percentage of the hands in my view that he would bet are going to either be 3-betting (maybe pushing), or c/r the turn all in. Tough spot, save it all by calling him and forcing a larger mistake at a later street.

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edit: I could also easily be raising with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't kid yourself, you'd never make that play.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming our opponent is decent and think we're relativly solid. When we raise that flop, a large percentage of the hands in my view that he would bet are going to either be 3-betting (maybe pushing), or c/r the turn all in. Tough spot, save it all by calling him and forcing a larger mistake at a later street.

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edit: I could also easily be raising with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't kid yourself, you'd never make that play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd only been at the table for about 40 minutes and couldn't find the exact same line where I raised preflop and then raised the flop with air. This is the closest in that game:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($567)
MP ($787.80)
CO ($761.45)
Button ($1175)
SB ($1307)
Hero ($582)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $18</font>, Hero calls $12.

Flop: ($36) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $24</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $72</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: $132

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

i kind of like the flop raise, and would bet/fold the turn.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

Completely different situation and almost standard if you know he's folding everything bar a king.

But raising someone who just bet into you after you raised pre on a montone flop 642 with total air isn't a play you'd ever make, so don't kid yourself into thinking he'll ever percieve you as having air.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. I LOVE the flop raise, and I think it accomplished a lot. It took back control of the hand, it defined the opponent pretty well, and it did not, as one poster suggests, define hero's hand. If I were villain, that flop raise would make me think that hero has two big cards, and one or both are clubs. When villain calls, it makes me think he has a big club, as well, though not two of them, and possibly has hit a small pair.

If hero now checks behind on the turn, he will have confirmed the opponent's incorrect read. Now he is ready to snap off a bluff on a club-less river, or to make a bluff if the river is a club and opponent checks.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

It's a tricky flop to bluff at from villian's point of view because you get called quite often, but if villian is prepared to make bold plays from the turn onwards there is still a reasonable chance he doesn't have much at all. I prefer calling the flop, but raising isn't bad.

I'd often just check the turn to be honest.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Completely different situation and almost standard if you know he's folding everything bar a king.

But raising someone who just bet into you after you raised pre on a montone flop 642 with total air isn't a play you'd ever make, so don't kid yourself into thinking he'll ever percieve you as having air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am kidding myself, but that's fine, I don't want him to perceive I have air.

I absolutely raise the flop with stronger hands, including a made flush.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I hate concepts of 'control of the hand', especially here if it even applies, because we have position which gives us control anyway since a lot of his hands would probably be some kind of draws.

Problems with raising the flop are simple. I really don't know what he's bet folding here, if he's bluffing I think a c/r would be more likely, but hey, maybe A6 or something. So why are we inflating the pot? We're making it difficult on ourselves and losing an excellent chance for him to make a bigger mistake later in the hand.

I'm finding it really difficult to explain why I much prefer a flop call, I guess I feel like opponents make so many mistakes on the turns, as do we, that we're just to vulnerable by raising.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

That's cool.

I wasn't trying to do anything esoteric on the flop. I had been aggressive and I thought he was trying to push back a bit. I thought it was likely enough he would fold on the flop.

Let's say I checked on the flop, how do you handle the turn if checked to, or if he leads with about a pot sized bet? Bet if he checks and call if he bets? (I mean with the turn card that came.)

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure. If he has a worse hand, I've got more money in good. If he has a better hand, I put money in badly. I was just thinking he likely didn't have much, but probably overs and it would be good if he folded.

edit: I think there's virtually no chance he checks down, so do you think I am calling him down, check-folding, or making a move on his turn or river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

he def doesnt just have non-club overs if he donked into the raiser. you could play this hand a lot of ways depending on who youre playing.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I assume you mean call on the flop, I'd probably bet the turn if checked too, and if he PSB's it I'd make a judgement call, probably folding.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

Yeah, meant call the flop.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate concepts of 'control of the hand', especially here if it even applies, because we have position which gives us control anyway since a lot of his hands would probably be some kind of draws.

Problems with raising the flop are simple. I really don't know what he's bet folding here, if he's bluffing I think a c/r would be more likely, but hey, maybe A6 or something. So why are we inflating the pot? We're making it difficult on ourselves and losing an excellent chance for him to make a bigger mistake later in the hand.

I'm finding it really difficult to explain why I much prefer a flop call, I guess I feel like opponents make so many mistakes on the turns, as do we, that we're just to vulnerable by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
By 'control of the hand' I mean that I think he will just call and check to me on the turn, which is exactly what the villain did.

I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

By raising the flop and checking behind on the turn, it induces a bluff/misplaced value bet from a lot of hands (such as A6). If a club comes on the end and he bets, I am probably folding, but I think I am ahead of his range if a non-club falls and he bets, only because his range includes all those hands which were semi-bluffing the flop and have missed.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
he def doesnt just have non-club overs if he donked into the raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have been reading more into what was going on at the table than there really was. He had seen me raising a lot preflop and betting postflop, but lately had seen me fold to postflop aggression and I thought he was likely to bet there with any hand he was playing. Could be he was playing a bunch of other tables and hadn't really thought about our little psychological battle.

Without that possibly bad read, I think playing this hand small would be best. There was at least one fish at the table, besides myself, and I shouldn't have been out gunning for a big pot with one of the better players.

It's ok to name names around here isn't it? If not, let me know and I'll edit. Villian was Vehn.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I really hate this line of thinking. It's certainly not something that sounds like it's maximising EV, unless it's accepting making enough poor decisions later on.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

this may explain it better.

this too:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG ($539.05)
Hero ($880.60)
SB ($1541.05)
BB :#A500AF(microbet)/ ($609)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB :#A500AF(microbet)/ raises to $54</font>, Hero calls $36.

Flop: ($111) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($111) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $80</font>, microbet calls $80.

River: ($271) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $175</font>, microbet folds.

Final Pot: $446

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($535.05)
Hero ($774.60)
BB ($1526.05)
UTG :#A500AF(microbet)/ ($608)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG :#A500AF(microbet)/ raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($42) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">microbet bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($102) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">microbet bets $72</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $300</font>, microbet folds.

Final Pot: $474

man I was trashed last night

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he def doesnt just have non-club overs if he donked into the raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have been reading more into what was going on at the table than there really was. He had seen me raising a lot preflop and betting postflop, but lately had seen me fold to postflop aggression and I thought he was likely to bet there with any hand he was playing. Could be he was playing a bunch of other tables and hadn't really thought about our little psychological battle.

Without that possibly bad read, I think playing this hand small would be best. There was at least one fish at the table, besides myself, and I shouldn't have been out gunning for a big pot with one of the better players.

It's ok to name names around here isn't it? If not, let me know and I'll edit. Villian was Vehn.

[/ QUOTE ]

thing is that this is a [censored] awful board to try and donk overcards on the flop. so much is calling or raising. if hes competent at all he likely wouldnt.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

Yeah, I thought you were making some moves. I did fold the better hand in those cases, but barely.

In the first case I had KQ and after you called the reraise preflop I was concerned about an overpair. Calling the turn was probably a mistake.

In the second I had 89 and both my bets were bluffs.

Thing was a couple people at that table had been pretty obviously folding whenever they missed or whenever a scary card came. I made a mistake treating you like them.

In the hand I posted I bet the turn and called a push, thinking I might still be ahead or if not a club might be good.

Vehn, do you think I was just unlucky that on this hand you really had it, or do you think I screwed up?

You can tell me, I'm just donking off the money I had on Stars before I decide what I'm going to do post-apocolypse. I probably won't be playing you much if at all.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I like the flop raise as a kind of cheap showdown play. I check the turn.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I thought you were making some moves. I did fold the better hand in those cases, but barely.

In the first case I had KQ and after you called the reraise preflop I was concerned about an overpair. Calling the turn was probably a mistake.

In the second I had 89 and both my bets were bluffs.

Thing was a couple people at that table had been pretty obviously folding whenever they missed or whenever a scary card came. I made a mistake treating you like them.

In the hand I posted I bet the turn and called a push, thinking I might still be ahead or if not a club might be good.

Vehn, do you think I was just unlucky that on this hand you really had it, or do you think I screwed up?

You can tell me, I'm just donking off the money I had on Stars before I decide what I'm going to do post-apocolypse. I probably won't be playing you much if at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 4 tabling and trashed and don't remember much, honestly I was playing like a complete donkey and think you played fine. On the J9s hand I would not call turn with KQ there without probably calling a river bet, I have a bluff a huge % of the time and will not ever let you win by checking river if thats what you were hoping for. The 89 hand to be honest I check bluffraise this turn a lot even when sober because its such a good turn to 2nd barrel at by most players.

In the posted hand you were just unlucky I had a big hand and you had a decent made hand. If you were full stack it would be an easy bet fold but as played you have "outs" and have to call after you pot the turn.

To be completely honest since it probably doesn't matter any more I very rarely donk flops into pf raisers without a monster. This is a limit mentality because most good limit players hate being donked and will play back at you very often.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

ty

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

i think even with the history bet calling this turn is terrible. i also think bet folding is gross. so yea, check the turn imo. i don't HATE the flop raise but i wouldn't call it standard. i'd like it more if it was two tone or even in this same situation if we didn't have the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

also, did you REALLY call the turn with KQ high no pair no draw in vehn's first hand? bet the flop and as played fold the turn...you put him on a big pair so you didn't bet the flop, but by that same logic you call the turn with KQ high no pair no draw??

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say I really hate this line of thinking. It's certainly not something that sounds like it's maximising EV, unless it's accepting making enough poor decisions later on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. My EV evaluation on the flop is this: If I just call, I expect he will fire again, whether for value or with a bluff/semi-bluff, and I will fold. Therefore, just calling is -EV. If I were able to say, with some reliability, 'I think that if I call this, one the turn he will bet he good hands but just check his bluff/semi-bluff most of the time,' then I would call. In this case, I didn't think so.

Note that I was prepared to say: If I raise here, I think he will reraise the strong hands, call the draws, and fold the total bluffs. If he has a draw and it misses on the turn, I believe he will check to me, at which point I can choose either to check behind or continue to pressure.

The line of reasoning has nothing to do with making poor decisions later on. It is recognizing that, later on, I'm going to be forced to make another decision without enough information, and I know how I will choose unless something unexpected happens. What I expect to happen in the future is a big part of my present EV calculation.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the first case I had KQ and after you called the reraise preflop I was concerned about an overpair. Calling the turn was probably a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably?

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say I really hate this line of thinking. It's certainly not something that sounds like it's maximising EV, unless it's accepting making enough poor decisions later on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. My EV evaluation on the flop is this: If I just call, I expect he will fire again, whether for value or with a bluff/semi-bluff, and I will fold. Therefore, just calling is -EV. If I were able to say, with some reliability, 'I think that if I call this, one the turn he will bet he good hands but just check his bluff/semi-bluff most of the time,' then I would call. In this case, I didn't think so.

Note that I was prepared to say: If I raise here, I think he will reraise the strong hands, call the draws, and fold the total bluffs. If he has a draw and it misses on the turn, I believe he will check to me, at which point I can choose either to check behind or continue to pressure.

The line of reasoning has nothing to do with making poor decisions later on. It is recognizing that, later on, I'm going to be forced to make another decision without enough information, and I know how I will choose unless something unexpected happens. What I expect to happen in the future is a big part of my present EV calculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well we have to disagree. For me calling&gt;raising&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;folding. I don't mind raising but calling is just fine.

As for saying that villian will almost certainly fire again - with a made hand, a semi-bluff, or air - well, I don't know why you say that. With most decent-ish players how they react on the turn after being called gives a lot more info. I really don't see many players simply betting the turn strong just because the bet the flop OOP. Also, thinking that villian will simply push any really good hand if raised, cold call draws only, and fold bluffs seems slightly optimistic to say the least.

Talk of extra "information" gained by raising is so often miss-placed.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

Thanks for the reply, COP. You've given me some food for thought.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HATE the flop raise a lot. Whats accomplished?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


well it does allow the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to move in and make us fold the best hand...