Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

<font color="red"> ****WARNING**** One of the links I post has a link inside that shows the actual video. The video is violent, displays a man getting tasered, beaten and as a result, he dies. This goes without saying, it's NSFW and I encourage you to avoid this footage. </font>

Video Released This is the article with a link to the video.

Eye-Witness States Polish man was calm

Expert states Taser was Unecessary

I've been following this story from the beginning and it's tragic. Mr. Dziekanski came all the way from Poland to Vancouver, BC Canada to visit his mother. He was stuck in the terminal for 10 hours. He did not speak English at all. Mr. Dziekanski threw a few chairs and broke a computer monitor.

Security could not handle him so the police were called. Once the police showed up, Mr. Dziekanski calmed down, raised his hands showing that he submits. The police surrounded him, tasered him and three of them constrained him. One had his knee pressed on his neck (from what I could see) and it looks like Mr. Dziekanski took an unecessary beating after he was tasered. Mr. Dziekanski died after the taser and take-down.

There are several people up in arms here and I can understand. It can be argued that the police used excessive force and could have physically restrained him.

It can be argued that the police were protecting themselves, as well as the citizens around them from a potentially dangerous situation.

I have a few questions of my own. Was the taser necessary? The knee in the neck, is that necessary?

I'm certain the police must have a lot of training/education regarding the physical aspects of tasering a person.

This situation has upset me since day 1. What do you think 2p2?

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Why was he throwing chairs and such?

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

He was in the airport and nobody on-site could understand him. After reviewing the tape, translators concluded that he was asking for help.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

I stopped the video after he was tasered. The guy was clearly highly agitated up to the point when the police showed up. It does appear that he submitted, and that he was tasered the instant he had assumed a compliant posture.

From the police perspective, here's a guy acting wildly at an airport, unable to communicate, speaking a strange language. The cops had to be jacked up on adrenaline, not that it's an excuse for their actions.

The victim was highly distressed at the onset of the video. He appeared to be sweating and disoriented. Being unable to communicate is a scary thing. From his perspective, he's stuck in an airport for hours and doesn't know why. Maybe he thought he was being detained. At the very least it's clear he didn't understand the situation. Maybe the guy just needed a cigarette. Who knows?

I'm surprised no one present attempted to communicate with him using gestures or other languages.

On a red-eye flight departing Vegas a few years ago, the plane was delayed for 40 minutes on the tarmac due to a problem with a brake line. The pilot announced that a cable was leaking and would have to be replaced, and that it would take about an hour. After a half hour, the flight attendants began quietly moving through the aisles asking if anyone spoke Italian. I know a little bit, and can read the language, so I offered to help.

An older couple, ashen-faced, were beginning to panic. I approached and it was evident that they were not speaking Italian. I tried French. The woman knew a little French and I was able to tell her that there was a minor problem with the brakes, repair was underway, and we would be on the way to Boston soon. They were concerned about missing their flight. The attendants were able to make arrangements for their overnight stay in Boston and that was that.

Turns out the couple were speaking Romanian.

Airports are scary places these days, for obvious reasons. The inability to communicate compounds this. Traveling alone is no help. Maybe signs need to be less anglocentric in our North American airports. Maybe passenger manifests should identify non-English speakers. Maybe security personnel could have assumed a less aggressive posture. I don't know, but this awful incident didn't need to happen.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Tasering seems to have become standard protocol in America. When the things originally came out it was claimed they could be used in place of guns, to save lives. Now they are used as a matter of course to control people who aren't in any way dangerous. It's wrong and I can't believe there isn't more oversight and control.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

I couldn't agree more, Phil.

Cops shouldn't taser someone who is throwing a chair. It shows how little people understand tasers and the human heart, and how little we value life. Police think that a stranger's life is expendable. The fact that society turns a blind eye and accepts this activity is pretty disturbing. What's next? We start killing people who are drunk and who backtalk the cops? We start tasering and killing juveniles who become sassy? God.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tasering seems to have become standard protocol in America. When the things originally came out it was claimed they could be used in place of guns, to save lives. Now they are used as a matter of course to control people who aren't in any way dangerous. It's wrong and I can't believe there isn't more oversight and control.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must really be out of the loop. When did Canada join the US?

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

that is fkin sick.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

How hard would it be to get a translator at the airport? Canada is one of the most multi-national countries in the world. I'm positive there was somebody who spoke polish at the airport.

This situation should have been handled better from the beginning. I would be freaking out if I was detained for 10 hours and nobody said a word that I could understand.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]

The knee in the neck, is that necessary?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that is standard procedure when taking someone down. people have been tasered and still been able to fight. the knee in the neck isn't meant to cause more harm, it's just a control method.

as for the taser being necessary, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

K's story of the romanian people worrying about their connecting flight illustrates how a whole chain of problems could ensue if part of your travel plans go awry, and if you're thinking maybe you could prevent that from happening if you could just communicate with someone, it must be extremely aggravating. I could see the frustration mounting up to an extreme.

FWIW, I have never been a fan of cops playing fast and easy with people's necks, whether tasers are involved or not. Or their other joints really, but especially their necks! Choke holds, whatever, it doesn't matter. Anybody involved with applying force to the human anatomy should have a clear understanding of how dangerous it is to do certain things. It's not like one joint is exactly like any other. I can understand if there's really a fight going on that an officer has every right to defend himself, but your response still has to be a responsible one. Being a cop changes nothing about that. If anything, it should hold you to a higher standard.

Once a guy is docile, if you still keep applying pain to him, not only is it simply unethical, but you are very likely to force a defensive and/or panicked physical response from him. That just increases the chance someone will get hurt, including the officers themselves, and might result in unnecessary criminal charges against a citizen who was merely responding like anyone would who was scared, in pain, or both. Applying more force than is necessary is not only bad police work, it's counter-productive.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The knee in the neck, is that necessary?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that is standard procedure when taking someone down. people have been tasered and still been able to fight. the knee in the neck isn't meant to cause more harm, it's just a control method.

as for the taser being necessary, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of things aren't meant to be harmful, or at least there is room to claim they aren't, but nevertheless can be harmful. Lots of those things aren't done anymore. Efficiency is definitely not the only or best criteria.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

I am a Canaidian living in the Vancouver area and I (like most) am sickened by this. It should have never happened and that is the sentiment of the majority of Canadians.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tasering seems to have become standard protocol in America. When the things originally came out it was claimed they could be used in place of guns, to save lives. Now they are used as a matter of course to control people who aren't in any way dangerous. It's wrong and I can't believe there isn't more oversight and control.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] America sucks
[x] Content
[ ] Smileys
[ ] Too many !'s
[ ] LOL

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tasering seems to have become standard protocol in America. When the things originally came out it was claimed they could be used in place of guns, to save lives. Now they are used as a matter of course to control people who aren't in any way dangerous. It's wrong and I can't believe there isn't more oversight and control.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] America sucks
[x] Content
[ ] Smileys
[ ] Too many !'s
[ ] LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Cute, overused, and completely wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Wait:

[x] Cute
[x] Overused
[x] Completely wrong

Much bettah! LOL [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tasering seems to have become standard protocol in America. When the things originally came out it was claimed they could be used in place of guns, to save lives. Now they are used as a matter of course to control people who aren't in any way dangerous. It's wrong and I can't believe there isn't more oversight and control.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] America sucks
[x] Content
[ ] Smileys
[ ] Too many !'s
[ ] LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

tom, I think you've got the wrong guy, that's Phil, not Midge.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the guy just needed a cigarette.

[/ QUOTE ]

kilgore,

actually that was the case. mr. dziekanski had quit smoking the day prior to the incident. even with cigarettes the effects of withdrawal can be quite severe for some people: it places the body into a state of extreme stress which leads to a mental imbalance. it seems that this, along with being detained whilst unable to communicate, led to the obvious distress seen in the tape. the guy just needed a smoke and a translator, instead overzealous cops took his life. sad.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

i do not want to judge too quickly. it makes me wonder, "were those officers trained that way?" if the answer is yes, well let's adjust that training! if the answer is no, well what should they have done instead?

i will not pretend to be an expert, that's why i'm hesitant to shout, "[censored] THA POLICE!"

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

show,

no, they are not trained that way. there is a hierarchy of intervention that officers are supposed to move through in dealing with volatile situations. tasers are at the top of that hierarchy just before lethal force, ie. firearms. in this instance the police skipped the intermediary steps and attacked mr. dziekanski almost immediately. furthermore, once the harm had been done they did not treat him. they did not administer first aid. the officers did not even place mr. dziekanski in the recovery position which, by the way, they said they had prior to the video coming out.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Wow, that was totally messed up. It looked like they thought they could shock him into understanding English. It would appear to me that they were upset that he was being disrespectful by walking away when they were trying to talk to him so they decided to zap him.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Lotta ego problems in cops unfortunately.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

false

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not an non-issue. Their improper procedure is completely unforgivable and their blatant use of uneccessary force should result in
severe punishment.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

false

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite the compelling evidence, I'll say true. People are tasered everyday. Cops are tasered as part of their training.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not an non-issue. Their improper procedure is completely unforgivable and their blatant use of uneccessary force should result in
severe punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it wasn't improper procedure. The Polish man did not follow the officer's instructions (he didn't place his hands on the counter) and exhibited assault like behaviour by throwing computer equipment around earlier. This is grounds for non-lethal use of force. It is up to the officer's discretion on what to use. I don't think the RCMP were out to get anyone here.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

People also die every day; that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to avoid situations that might make it easier to happen.

And it also doesn't make kneeling on someone's neck a good idea, no matter how "efficient" one could claim it to be.

The uncomfortable thing is, people still matter. That's why we hire and actually bother to train cops, rather than just using cheap thugs to do the same jobs.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Police officer 1: Should we taze him?
Police officer 2 (non-chalantly): yeah

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

false

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite the compelling evidence, I'll say true. People are tasered everyday. Cops are tasered as part of their training.

[/ QUOTE ]

have a look around at the news. taser incidents that do not result in death are being protested constantly.

it is not the job of the police to deal with a situation as quickly as possible. it is the job of the police to deal with a situation as best as possible: in a manner that is fair and safe.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not an non-issue. Their improper procedure is completely unforgivable and their blatant use of uneccessary force should result in
severe punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it wasn't improper procedure. The Polish man did not follow the officer's instructions (he didn't place his hands on the counter) and exhibited assault like behaviour by throwing computer equipment around earlier. This is grounds for non-lethal use of force. It is up to the officer's discretion on what to use. I don't think the RCMP were out to get anyone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, it was improper procedure. tasers are supposed to be almost the last resort, just before firearms. they are meant to be used in situations where firearms would be used if there were no tasers.

furthermore, as i alluded to earlier, the officers did not attend to the victim properly after they literally jolted the life out of him.

it's not about "being out to get anyone." nobody's saying they rolled in thinking, "let's kill this [censored]." what's at issue is the incompetence of the officers.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was just lazy policing. Rather than take the time to subdue him, the police thought they could zap him and get out of there quickly. He was a big guy and the police didn't want a physical confrontation. I can't say I blame them. Death by taser is very rare. If the man didn't die, this would have been a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not an non-issue. Their improper procedure is completely unforgivable and their blatant use of uneccessary force should result in
severe punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it wasn't improper procedure. The Polish man did not follow the officer's instructions (he didn't place his hands on the counter) and exhibited assault like behaviour by throwing computer equipment around earlier. This is grounds for non-lethal use of force. It is up to the officer's discretion on what to use. I don't think the RCMP were out to get anyone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, it was improper prodedure. The police have many physical procedures available to subdue an individual prior to using a taser. Tasers are meant to be last resort porcedures. The only procedure above tasers is the use of a firearm.
This was nowhere near a firearm situation.
And yes we hopefully can assume that the police were not out "to get somebody" (let alone kill somebody) but for whatever reason they made a huge mistake and they must be held accountable.
Canadians are going to accept nothing less!

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

"yes, it was improper procedure. tasers are supposed to be almost the last resort, just before firearms. they are meant to be used in situations where firearms would be used if there were no tasers."

I think this is misleading. There are no hard rules designating Tasers as a second last option for Canadian officers. It is an immobilizing tool that uses pain compliance, just like batons, pepper spray, or physical techniques. It is unfair to think that officers should put their bodies in harms way in order to subdue an individual if a reasonable alternative exists, especially since the other techniques can escalate a situation.

The suspect exhibited violent behaviour by throwing equipment around and resisted arrest by not following the officers' orders. Legally, they are covered for using the Taser. What they did afterward though is rightfully subject to criticism.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

What was the actual cause of death? Has it been announced yet?

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
"yes, it was improper procedure. tasers are supposed to be almost the last resort, just before firearms. they are meant to be used in situations where firearms would be used if there were no tasers."

I think this is misleading. There are no hard rules designating Tasers as a second last option for Canadian officers. It is an immobilizing tool that uses pain compliance, just like batons, pepper spray, or physical techniques. It is unfair to think that officers should put their bodies in harms way in order to subdue an individual if a reasonable alternative exists, especially since the other techniques can escalate a situation.

The suspect exhibited violent behaviour by throwing equipment around and resisted arrest by not following the officers' orders. Legally, they are covered for using the Taser. What they did afterward though is rightfully subject to criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

good lord, yes it is the case that tasers are supposed to be used at the upper end of the conflict hierarchy.

it's also not about the legality of using the taser. wtf, how silly to say that.

/trying with you

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Casue of death has not conclusively been determined yet. Several circumstances led up to the tasering by the police. They made some serious
procedural mistakes but Vancouver Airport deserves some blame as well for not assisting the victim for houes on end. This article soums things up quite well. I think it is suggested reading. It is a tragic story indeed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/world/...nyt&amp;emc=rss

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Vancouver Airport is a large international Airport and the following exhibits how their actions were also inexcusable:


Mr. Dziekanski died not far from dramatic Coast Salish totemic "welcome figures" that had greeted him at the entrance to the Arrivals Hall several hours earlier.

Mr. Kosteckyj described how a journey to a new life devolved into a nightmarish scenario, in which Mr. Dziekanski was left wandering helpless and alone in a busy airport while his mother, Zofia Cisowski, was searching for him nearby.

The waiting mother and increasingly frantic son were separated by glass walls and what appears to be impenetrable airport bureaucracy that somehow failed to help them connect.

"Unbelievably, these people were probably no more than 150 to 200 feet apart for at least five hours, and she was unable to get any message to him. And no one on the other side [of the glass walls] thought to interview him or come outside or vice versa," Mr. Kosteckyj said.

He said he could not explain why no one was able to come to the assistance of Mr. Dziekanski in an airport that handles 17 million visitors a year.

"For all the high-tech stuff they have at the airport, and all the security they have, somehow a guy can sit or be in that baggage area, that immigration area, for a period of nine hours … without anyone really taking much notice of him — as unbelievable as that sounds," Mr. Kosteckyj said.

He said Mr. Dziekanski's journey to Canada began in Poland about 3 a.m., when he left his home town of Pieszyce to get to an airport for his first airplane flight. The 40-year-old construction worker, who had never left Poland before, was immigrating to Canada to join his mother, 61, who lives in Kamloops, about a five-hour drive from Vancouver.

They had arranged to meet at the baggage carousel in the international terminal at Vancouver Airport. What neither of them seemed to know, however, was that the baggage area is inside a secure area just past Canada Customs and Immigration. There is no line of sight into the Arrivals Hall from the public waiting area, except for a short distance through sliding glass doors.

Mr. Dziekanski arrived at about 3 p.m. on Sunday, Oct. 14.

"He made his way to primary customs in the ordinary fashion … he went through there in the normal time frame … he then proceeded through and was directed to secondary customs, which is normal for someone who doesn't speak English and is immigrating to the country," Mr. Kosteckyj said. His papers were in order and he proceeded without difficulty.

But what happened after that was far from normal. For nearly 10 hours, Mr. Dziekanski stayed in the Arrivals Hall, growing increasingly frustrated and eventually becoming frantic.

Outside, in the public area, his mother spent nearly six hours pacing the corridors and, in broken English, asking airport officials for help in locating her son.

Mr. Kosteckyj said she visited one booth in international arrivals "at least three to four times and conveyed to them that she was concerned about her son being in the area and she wanted to get a message to him and how could she do that? They wrote her name down and said that they would make inquiries."

At about 10 p.m., she was told he wasn't there. She made the long drive home, only to find a phone message waiting, saying her son had been found.

"She called back to immigration when she got in, which would have been around 2 a.m., and spoke to someone there and was advised that her son was somewhere in the area and was fine. And she advised, you know, 'Please take care of him because he can't speak English and I'll get there as soon as I can.' And of course he had died, been killed really, some time on or about 1 or 1:30," Mr. Kosteckyj

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

R*R,

yeah, the whole thing is so sick. it troubles me how callous people can be both in creating the situation and in reflecting upon it.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

Yes all we can hope for is that ultimately some positive changes by both the police and the airport result. It should be said that some civilians tried to help him but by that time he was inconsolable. I really like where you stand on this and optimistically I think alot of people feel the same way.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is unfair to think that officers should put their bodies in harms way in order to subdue an individual if a reasonable alternative exists, especially since the other techniques can escalate a situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Extremely strongly disagree. It is the most essential and characteristic part of their job that they do exactly that. You cannot remove judgment from policing without totalitarianism. When police become robotic, they become no better than thugs. Taking the easy way out to avoid potential bodily harm is the exact opposite of what police are hired for. Anyone, or it should probably be stated, any ass, can be hired simply to apply maximum force to every situation in order to keep his own arse maximally safe. But we are not hiring room cleaners and search and destroy technicians when we hire police. Entirely the opposite.

We are paying police -- and many of them get paid very well -- precisely to put themselves in harm's way so we don't have to, and to eliminate the threat of violence from daily life for civil society. If it is the police themselves who comprise any part of the threat of violence, they are no better than thugs and have completely failed in their mission. As well, those delimiting the scope of their duties would be responsible for the sick, dangerous turning of the police mission from protecting and serving to being a quasi-military force arrayed against a country's own citizens.

This is not a fascistic state. Not yet, anyway. Police are still here to protect us, not punish us, or arbitrarily decide what level of safety is appropriate to us. Police are merely the tools of an orderly society, not the decadent rulers of it.

Re: Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes all we can hope for is that ultimately some positive changes by both the police and the airport result. It should be said that some civilians tried to help him but by that time he was inconsolable. I really like where you stand on this and optimistically I think alot of people feel the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to remain optimistic that there is still enough empathy and ordinary decency left in society that sober people can feel this incident was handled extremely badly.