I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

All these posts about life and parenting have had me thinking.
and last night I ran into a situation that drives me to rant.

High school senior, a bright girl, youngest and from a professional family. Has a lock on being Valdictorian for her class.
Come to find out that since freshman year she has taken basic college prep courses, not a single AP course for which she has the capacity. Her goal since freshman year has been to finish top of the class. Her parents support this goal. The school board and the guidance department do not support weighted scores for AP classwork.
Needless to say the next five students in the class have taken all the AP classes they could. AND ARE A BIT MIFFED that she has taken the easy path to the goal. So she has few friends in school and states she doesn't really care. One might say she lacks warmth.
So on the ride home I get to ranting about the situation and conclude that:
The school has done the other students a disservice by not weighting AP classes.
Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities. They had an opportunity to instill character and did not.
She has done herself a disservice by not acquiring the knowledge available to her.
The additional knowledge that she did not acquire would have served her well in her next level of schooling.
Bottom line is she has sacrificed so much for a goal of being the best, but it is the best of the lowest level. Her next level of education will be that much harder because of this.
She is the Barry Bonds of class ranking, she deserves an asterisk on the program. ( OK, maybe a bit harsh for a high school kid, but her parents deserve a KITN).

end/rant.

oh, and sorry about the BBV title titillation on the post..

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

my school, and i assume most schools in general, weight ap courses more heavily, so it was impossible to be a top ranked student w/o taking ap courses. even so, there were similar gripes in my high school, except it was about kids taking the easier ap courses. my school system offered ~20 ap courses (not sure of the exact number), so there was some gpa buffering with vanilla ap classes. there were a few students in my high school class who had taken more difficult courses than our valedictorian, but our goal wasn't to be the valedictorian. i feel like this is a pretty common scenario and the students who have taken a stronger course load should take solace in having better preparation for college.

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Bottom line is she has sacrificed so much for a goal of being the best, but it is the best of the lowest level. Her next level of education will be that much harder because of this.
She is the Barry Bonds of class ranking, she deserves an asterisk on the program. ( OK, maybe a bit harsh for a high school kid, but her parents deserve a KITN).

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true, but it's her prerogative. i'm sure she's aware that she could have been better prepared for college by taking a stronger course load, but college preparation wasn't her only goal. it's ridiculous that the school doesn't weight ap courses, but given that it doesn't, the girl hasn't done anything wrong and hasn't hurt anyone. she is not the best student, but she has the best grades,

also where is she going to college? our valedictorian was no slouch, but there were people from my high school class who got into better schools

edit: i should say attended better schools, b/c i don't know the schools that accepted her, only the one she attended.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Would like to PM you, your box is full.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

For a second, I thought this was a post about how you would soon be going to jail.

After reading it, I realized that this girl already understands about life that a lot of people don't get until they have hurt themselves because they don't get it. That is, life is about tradeoffs. She has traded having to pay for college courses later on for making the best grades and beating out all the other college course takers who are having to work harder. Then again, the exceptional grades in high school might open up the doors for scholarships that otherwise may not be available without them. Since her family apparently has money, the college tuition isn't really a concern for her, anyway.

I think the other kids are miffed because they don't get that they traded college credit and not having to take courses later for being runner up to Miss Prissy Pants.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Can't really fault anyone for playing a system that's in place, either. You rarely get any rewards for doing things in the way that will make other people look better, at a sacrifice to yourself. And you can get trapped into a really bad way of living and poor outcomes that way, too.

On another note, I've never even heard of weighing AP classes. How nice that you folks even consider that an option that is or should be standard. In my high school, it was more like, Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

Of course, that was not a place where the faculty really gave a damn if anyone went to college or not.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

i don't think anyone will disagree with OP's rant, its an obviously bad system. Girl is not really much at fault though her actions are not very honourable either. She is basically throwing away a better HS experience for some accolade, (is accolade a good word here, i've never used it in a sentence?) but has her reasons for doing it.

On another note, the valedictorian of my HS class was chosen by student vote, the only qualification being an 80%+ average in the University prep courses (highest level). I like this system, making HS about being top of your class markswise seems bad to me. Of course being the valedictorian is more of an honour and a chance to represent classmates, not a scholarship opportunity. I like my school's system.


PS the title of this thread is very misleading

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

I don't like your school's system at all. There's already the prom king and prom queen for that, not to mention the entirety of the rest of high school. Your school's system basically makes the distinction of being valedictorian meaningless.

And 80% average is enough to qualify? Not impressive on that front either.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

you cant really hate on this girl for playing the system.

I cant think of a way to make it fair. Just changing it so that grades are weighted wont change anything either. If you are offering a wide variety of AP courses then you could just take the easier classes.

Our school had weighted gpa but some AP classes were obviously easier than others. AP english was a great class and everyone learned alot but everyone usually made an A or a B. Others like calculus was alot harder.

Who teaches the class makes such a big difference, that it makes it hard for any system to be fair.


You can get alot of scholarships too by being the valedictorian, maybe that's why she did it. And even if her parents could afford to send her to school, it's nice to not have to pay 50k or whatever.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Yeah. That's even cheap by today's standards, when you add everything up.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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you cant really hate on this girl for playing the system.



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I am not hating her. I just think her goal was shortsighted. And I understand a high school freshman has very short sight. I struggle with the parents not wanting their freshman child to go for the most and best education available.
And I struggle with the system being so playable. I think AP classes should carry more weight. Yes there may be easier classes than others within the AP, good teachers and bad teachers in both groups, but it would still be fairer. There are gut courses everywhere but I see value in weighting.
And I think gambling four years of education for the scholarships is a bad gamble. One bad semester and one of the five kids behind her might have overtaken top spot. Then she has no top spot and is missing the knowledge that was available to her.

I found out a little more info today.
She is the youngest of 5 kids. The other four were all in top 5 of the class. Two took AP classes, two did not. There might well be a family dynamic in play.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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Her parents are letting her lead her own life. If she wanted to take AP courses, and think for herself, and learn more than one side, she could have. The only thing the parents should have done was say, "I think you'd do great in this class", nothing more.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

i think you're drastically overestimating the value of better classes at a high school level preparing you for better classes at the university level. i finished top 10ish in my high school class, but came into college w/ about a year's worth of AP credit. The classes in high school were great, but in terms of preparing me for university courses . . . pretty meh.

edit: additionally i got into a pretty competitive college program that is basically a school of IR, but if I could do it again i would have just played the game and taken comparatively easier classes with comparatively less competitive peers in a regular government program. after i graduated and job hunted, i just realized how little most employers cared. even within higher academia, i doubt people care

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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I don't like your school's system at all. There's already the prom king and prom queen for that, not to mention the entirety of the rest of high school. Your school's system basically makes the distinction of being valedictorian meaningless.

And 80% average is enough to qualify? Not impressive on that front either.

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the only responsibility of a valedictorian is make a speech at graduation correct? How is getting the best mark a good qualification for that? How is a vote not?

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...Adventures.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...y1/Newbern.jpg

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

b/c valedictorians are generally chosen based on objective academic criteria, like GPA. there's nothing wrong with the way your school does it, but it might sound to some like everyone gets a trophy day. kind of a celebration of almost excellence.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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Her parents are letting her lead her own life. If she wanted to take AP courses, and think for herself, and learn more than one side, she could have. The only thing the parents should have done was say, "I think you'd do great in this class", nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I don't have kids, but don't they tend to not always have the best judgement, often misplace priorities and look to their parents to help prepare them well for life?

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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Her parents are letting her lead her own life. If she wanted to take AP courses, and think for herself, and learn more than one side, she could have. The only thing the parents should have done was say, "I think you'd do great in this class", nothing more.

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I don't know. I don't have kids, but don't they tend to not always have the best judgement, often misplace priorities and look to their parents to help prepare them well for life?

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Insisting was the wrong word. I should have used encouraged. I personally would have encouraged or bribed....



Parents who think a 14 year old should be leading their own life are mistaken. They are just beginning to think for themselves. It is a tricky age where you are beyond the " Because I said so!" age and into a more subtle form of guidance where you leave them thinking they actually came to the right conclusion on their own. Very tricky...

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

My high school is so awesome that we had 2 valedictorians. There were only 50 graduation seniors.

Valedictorians tend to be pretty boring people imo.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

we had three valedictorians in a HS class of almost 600 kids, I think - (Flathead High School was BIG) - and I remember being in a couple AP classes where these conversations always occurred.

By and large, colleges used to consider AP work more favorably then just an A in joe blow English 101, esp. if you get a high enough score to get credit. It's a more meaningful and objective symbol of knowledge.

(FYI, I got screwed in AP history - my essay question was about W.E.B. Dubois, and in MT no one had any idea who he was - LOL)

But I remember having these discussions in class - kids who would take a hit cause they were in Calculus instead of some other class, but our Valedictorians were all from the upper crust of nerddom - guess HS has changed a bit the last few years though - I'm sure C isn't an average grade anymore.

RB

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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Her parents are letting her lead her own life. If she wanted to take AP courses, and think for herself, and learn more than one side, she could have. The only thing the parents should have done was say, "I think you'd do great in this class", nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I don't have kids, but don't they tend to not always have the best judgement, often misplace priorities and look to their parents to help prepare them well for life?

[/ QUOTE ]



Insisting was the wrong word. I should have used encouraged. I personally would have encouraged or bribed....



Parents who think a 14 year old should be leading their own life are mistaken. They are just beginning to think for themselves. It is a tricky age where you are beyond the " Because I said so!" age and into a more subtle form of guidance where you leave them thinking they actually came to the right conclusion on their own. Very tricky...

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Parents forcing high schoolers to do stuff really pisses me off. I don't know, my parents didn't force me to do anything, I chose AP(ish, it's actually IB) for myself. They never talked to me about drugs, I don't do drugs. Etc etc etc

I find it amazing, the amount of students in my college classes that still can't think for themselves.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Needless to say the next five students in the class have taken all the AP classes they could. AND ARE A BIT MIFFED that she has taken the easy path to the goal. So she has few friends in school and states she doesn't really care. One might say she lacks warmth.


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If one of the other five students became valdictorian should he/she feel sorry for the ones that did not?

I dont know how the american school system work, but wount a higher gpa help her get into better schools, she may have been able to do well in the AP courses but this would lower her gpa. She realised that and did not take any AP couses this does not seem shortsighted to me. Taking the hardest course not thinking about the consequence would be the shortsighted think to do imo

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Also, some colleges don't count Ap classes. University of Rochester is one I know of for sure..... and since I'm a guiadance counselor I should know more.

AP will eventually be going away anyways, and International Baccalaureates degrees will take its place.

This girls is also doing her high school a favor. By so obviously exploiting a loophole they will have to change the system. You should simply not be aloud to be Valedictorian without taking multiple AP classes.

And why are you hanging around with high school girls?

Ken

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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And why are you hanging around with high school girls?

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Duh.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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you cant really hate on this girl for playing the system.



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I am not hating her. I just think her goal was shortsighted. And I understand a high school freshman has very short sight. I struggle with the parents not wanting their freshman child to go for the most and best education available.
And I struggle with the system being so playable. I think AP classes should carry more weight. Yes there may be easier classes than others within the AP, good teachers and bad teachers in both groups, but it would still be fairer. There are gut courses everywhere but I see value in weighting.
And I think gambling four years of education for the scholarships is a bad gamble. One bad semester and one of the five kids behind her might have overtaken top spot. Then she has no top spot and is missing the knowledge that was available to her.

I found out a little more info today.
She is the youngest of 5 kids. The other four were all in top 5 of the class. Two took AP classes, two did not. There might well be a family dynamic in play.

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The knowledge is extremely overblown. She can always catch up on the knowledge later, if she feels like it. A great deal of the knowledge won't even be useful to her in college, and by the time college is done, will be as useless as if it were never possible to accumulate at all. It's very far from an intellectual society we are living in.

What this girl did was saw her chance and took it. If there are flaws in the system, it is exactly the wrong thing to do to blame the individual for being smart and practical enough to play them. What deserves criticism is the system, not the person who in self defense works it properly so she doesn't get screwed.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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I don't like your school's system at all. There's already the prom king and prom queen for that, not to mention the entirety of the rest of high school. Your school's system basically makes the distinction of being valedictorian meaningless.

And 80% average is enough to qualify? Not impressive on that front either.

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the only responsibility of a valedictorian is make a speech at graduation correct? How is getting the best mark a good qualification for that? How is a vote not?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a super bizarre way of looking at what being a valedictorian means. You might as well comment on the importance of her wearing a special hat.

Which basically it seems like you are.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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My high school is so awesome that we had 2 valedictorians. There were only 50 graduation seniors.

Valedictorians tend to be pretty boring people imo.

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Definition of small sample size - even though yours is weirdly doubled!

WTF the definition of accomplishment seems to be buried in touchy-feely wish wash. At least you haven't argued -- so far! -- that being valedictorian should depend on how much you are wuvved. Or good looking, or whatever.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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Her parents are letting her lead her own life. If she wanted to take AP courses, and think for herself, and learn more than one side, she could have. The only thing the parents should have done was say, "I think you'd do great in this class", nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I don't have kids, but don't they tend to not always have the best judgement, often misplace priorities and look to their parents to help prepare them well for life?

[/ QUOTE ]



Insisting was the wrong word. I should have used encouraged. I personally would have encouraged or bribed....



Parents who think a 14 year old should be leading their own life are mistaken. They are just beginning to think for themselves. It is a tricky age where you are beyond the " Because I said so!" age and into a more subtle form of guidance where you leave them thinking they actually came to the right conclusion on their own. Very tricky...

[/ QUOTE ]

Parents forcing high schoolers to do stuff really pisses me off. I don't know, my parents didn't force me to do anything, I chose AP(ish, it's actually IB) for myself. They never talked to me about drugs, I don't do drugs. Etc etc etc

I find it amazing, the amount of students in my college classes that still can't think for themselves.

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Even among the wisest, everything is still case by case.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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I don't like your school's system at all. There's already the prom king and prom queen for that, not to mention the entirety of the rest of high school. Your school's system basically makes the distinction of being valedictorian meaningless.

And 80% average is enough to qualify? Not impressive on that front either.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only responsibility of a valedictorian is make a speech at graduation correct? How is getting the best mark a good qualification for that? How is a vote not?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a super bizarre way of looking at what being a valedictorian means. You might as well comment on the importance of her wearing a special hat.

Which basically it seems like you are.

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We also voted for our valedictorian, and any other method seems silly to me. Almost every year the person voted in was someone that had made friends with almost everybody in the grade. This generally made the speech more entertaining and more meaningful to the graduating class then what the top marks person would be.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

um, voting for valedictorian seems retarded to me. best grades should get valedictorian, funny speech can come from class president.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your school's system at all. There's already the prom king and prom queen for that, not to mention the entirety of the rest of high school. Your school's system basically makes the distinction of being valedictorian meaningless.

And 80% average is enough to qualify? Not impressive on that front either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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um, voting for valedictorian seems retarded to me. best grades should get valedictorian, funny speech can come from class president.

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This thread reminds me of the movie "Election." This girl set a goal and played within the rules to get it. Good for her. Whether this means she is a better student, etc. than the runners' up is irrelevant. She has proven the best at being the valedictorian, and nothing more.

Of course:

We clearly need a playoff. I know the BCS puts the top candidates into contention for valedictiorian and in theory gives us the true valedictorian on paper, but often some of the stronger candidates can be left out.

Getting a "B" or "C" in frehsman year often takes you out of the running, even if you rebound into form your junior or senior year. In other words, rather than scheduling cupcakes classes from lower divisions, some students are penalized for scheduling challenging classes which may give them a lot more education and demand much more performance, even where they only score a "B."

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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best grades should get valedictorian

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but whyyyyy?

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

I always assumed Valedictorian assumed academic superiority so voting on it seems strange. Voting would shaft the quiet students, imo.

If her purpose of being valedictorian is to get into the best college possible she probably played the system wrong as most colleges account for courses taken and have a weighted GPA standards in its admissions policies. If she's going for personal glory I guess she got there in her eyes.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Voting would shaft the quiet students, imo.


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And give the advantage to the ones that are likely to make a good speech? k i'll stop now

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Voting would shaft the quiet students, imo.


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And give the advantage to the ones that are likely to make a good speech? k i'll stop now

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I'm not sure whether you ever got started.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Definitely.

I can't imagine giving a crap about some student's speech, either. That's also the part of beauty contests I space out during. Which I thought being valedictorian was supposed to have no parallels with.

Is the next step giving out valedictorian status on the basis of who demonstrates the most self esteem?

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

Her parents are idiots for not explaining to her that nobody cares what you did in high school when your real life starts (adulthood)

Seriously, what adult out there cares if some person they meet graduated first in their class? (Getting grades and SAT scores for college do have some obvious merit of course.)

This is something that to a 14 year old seems important but her parents should be wise enough to know that in the long run it's fairly meaningless. I suspect that like many parents these days they will do anything to please their children regardless of any control or rational thought.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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Definitely.

I can't imagine giving a crap about some student's speech, either. That's also the part of beauty contests I space out during. Which I thought being valedictorian was supposed to have no parallels with.

Is the next step giving out valedictorian status on the basis of who demonstrates the most self esteem?

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Just want to clear one thing up. At my graduation ceremony, one student made a speech, the valedictorian. The valedictorian had 0 other responsibilities and did absolutely nothing else other than make the speech. If this is the case everywhere, I do not understand one of two things:

- Why does the valedictorian selection process have nothing to do with speech delivering ability? Not to say that this should be all of it, but shouldn't it be considered?

- Why does the valedictorian make a speech? If it's just an honour given to the student with the highest marks, what is the point of them making a speech?

As I see it, the valedictorian should be a good representative of the graduating class, that is their main purpose imo.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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The school has done the other students a disservice by not weighting AP classes.

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Agreed.

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Her parents have done her a disservice by not insisting she work to her capabilities.

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No, there's nothing wrong with someone playing the game differently than you think it should be played.

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They had an opportunity to instill character and did not.

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How? She worked hard to accomplish her goals. Her goals just happened to be different from other people's goals. Seems to me she has plenty of "character".


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She has done herself a disservice by not acquiring the knowledge available to her.

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Knowledge? High school? LOL

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The additional knowledge that she did not acquire would have served her well in her next level of schooling.

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Not really. Being valedictorian will serve her better. What she really missed out on, which you failed to mention, was free college credits from AP classes. As such, she's going to end up taking those classes anyway and getting all that "knowledge" you think she's missing out on.

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Her next level of education will be that much harder because of this.

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True, like one additional semester. Not much really over the coarse of one's life and being valedictorian is something she'll probably treasure more throughout her life than having to take an additional semester of college.

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She is the Barry Bonds of class ranking, she deserves an asterisk on the program.

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This is just retarded. She didn't do anything questionable to get what she got. It's the system that's questionable, not her actions.

Re: I met a girl last night, she is a high school senior
 

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best grades should get valedictorian

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but whyyyyy?

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Because that's what it is. If you want to make some other title/reward in addition to or intead of valedictorian, feel free.