Tricky play sir
 

Villain is a total unknown and this is my first orbit. He is at two of my tables.

Party 2/4 and 400 effective.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red">Hero raises to $16,</font> 4 folds, Villain calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot: $34)
Villain checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $30</font>, Villain calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot: 94)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot: 94)
Villain checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $75, Villain raises to 260,</font> ...

He thought for a little while before raising.

If fold, for bonus points what's the worst hand you call with?

Re: Tricky play sir
 

A4+. But I would be bet/felting KT on the turn.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

AK+

Re: Tricky play sir
 

A8+

Re: Tricky play sir
 

Doesn't A4 pretty much equal AQ here? Check raising river with smaller two pair is a really weird line.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

im calling AQ.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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im calling AQ.

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just cuz his line is so weird, Id look him up and make a note

Re: Tricky play sir
 

Id make a note as well, but fold it.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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im calling AQ.

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yeah me too since he wasnt planning on checkraising and had to think for a minute about whether he could make you fold or not

Re: Tricky play sir
 

His line is strange, but what are we beating other then total air? I fold here.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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His line is strange, but what are we beating other then total air? I fold here.

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8x or a small PP turned into a bluff. This is pretty player dependent obviously, so if you don't have much in the way of reads I think either decision is perfectly fine, but I'd lean towards calling and making a note if he seems aggro.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

id call w AQ bc if hes tricky enough to check a set twice, hes tricky enough to bluff CR the river when your hand pretty much looks like what it is.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

In the actual hand I was villain and held 99. I was pretty sure utg was 2+2 and that he had no read on me based on the first orbit. I was kinda like 'eh it's 2/4 he probably can't read hands' and figured he would give me credit as an unknown. I wouldn't have done this at higher stakes tho.

Good bluff/bad bluff?

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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In the actual hand I was villain and held 99. I was pretty sure utg was 2+2 and that he had no read on me based on the first orbit. I was kinda like 'eh it's 2/4 he probably can't read hands' and figured he would give me credit as an unknown. I wouldn't have done this at higher stakes tho.

Good bluff/bad bluff?

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Depends on if he has a fold button or not. FWIW, I'd like your line here for value a lot more since I think you get looked up here a fair amount and he's betting this river a tonnnn obviously.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

I don't like the bluff, the line is strange so he might call out of curiosity.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the actual hand I was villain and held 99. I was pretty sure utg was 2+2 and that he had no read on me based on the first orbit. I was kinda like 'eh it's 2/4 he probably can't read hands' and figured he would give me credit as an unknown. I wouldn't have done this at higher stakes tho.

Good bluff/bad bluff?

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This is the sort of situation that I'm not too sure about vs an unknown. It's pretty obvious that the AQ hand has one pair here the vast majority of the time. I just don't know if I give the "bluffer" credit for realizing this. I would have folded but it could be wrong against an unknown that clearly isn't fishy. A lot of people want to call. I think I like the tricky enough to do this with a set then he's tricky enough to bluff here theory.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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Id make a note as well, but fold it.

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Make a note on what - you don't know what he's playing like this... Or just a note "he's tricky; will cr river".

Re: Tricky play sir
 

This looks more like a pocket pair that realizes it's no good anymore than any other line.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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Id make a note as well, but fold it.

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I've been seeing this lately and it makes no sense. How are you gonna make a note on someone when you fold?

also, this is similar to the hand I posted w/ AK vs. gp333 and everyone said fold. I guess there are several differences tho mainly that people are familiar w/ the villain, we were 200BB deep, he shoved, and it was a 3-bet pot bvb.

How are we adjusting our calling ranges to this line depending on:

1. single pf raise vs. 3 bet pot?

2. position? (BB vs. SB or BTN vs. CO or BTN vs. UTG)

3. how deep we are?

4. type of villain? (i.e. unknown vs. TAG vs. LAG vs. sicko)

5. bet sizing? (normal raise vs. shove)

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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This looks more like a pocket pair that realizes it's no good anymore than any other line.

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nice of you to chime in with this after OP revealed what he had.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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This looks more like a pocket pair that realizes it's no good anymore than any other line.

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I hate these posts.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

calling with AQ here seems like SUCH spew. it can only be justified by massive fps type thinking.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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im calling AQ.

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Re: Tricky play sir
 

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calling with AQ here seems like SUCH spew. it can only be justified by massive fps type thinking.

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I don't understand what you mean by massive fps type thinking. If we think villain has a massive case of fps then we should fold. He'd have to be getting extremely fancy to have us beat. The more I look at it the more I like a call.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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If we think villain has a massive case of fps then we should fold. He'd have to be getting extremely fancy to have us beat.

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If I had a set on the flop I would about always cc or cr without history, and if I cc then I would always play the rest of the hand this way. Maybe I have a major case of fps?

Re: Tricky play sir
 

i fold too

Re: Tricky play sir
 

I think I fold AQ here vs an unknown, so it would work vs me. But I think &gt;60% of Party 2/4 players call here - so I don't think I like your bluff generally.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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If we think villain has a massive case of fps then we should fold. He'd have to be getting extremely fancy to have us beat.

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If I had a set on the flop I would about always cc or cr without history, and if I cc then I would always play the rest of the hand this way. Maybe I have a major case of fps?

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If you did c/c the flop with a set here, you SHOULD be going for a river c/r. It's not FPS, it's the most +EV play on this river and it's not close. That being said, when you c/r the river here I'd think your range is pretty polarized between flopped sets and random weak 1 pair hands turned into a bluff, since taking this line with A8 seems too thin without some history and you probably aren't cold calling A8 OOP preflop anyways. If that is the case, it would seem that calling with AQ given the odds he's getting is correct.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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If you did c/c the flop with a set here, you SHOULD be going for a river c/r. It's not FPS, it's the most +EV play on this river and it's not close. That being said, when you c/r the river here I'd think your range is pretty polarized between flopped sets and random weak 1 pair hands turned into a bluff, since taking this line with A8 seems too thin without some history and you probably aren't cold calling A8 OOP preflop anyways. If that is the case, it would seem that calling with AQ given the odds he's getting is correct.

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Good post, sir.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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calling with AQ here seems like SUCH spew. it can only be justified by massive fps type thinking.

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Ya I think calling AQ here is bad too. The times we're beat &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; times we win the pot.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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If we think villain has a massive case of fps then we should fold. He'd have to be getting extremely fancy to have us beat.

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If I had a set on the flop I would about always cc or cr without history, and if I cc then I would always play the rest of the hand this way. Maybe I have a major case of fps?

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This is definitely true, but the times you hit a set and play it this way is probably less than 50% of the time (I assume you'd normally c/r flop, or sometimes c/c flop lead turn on proper boards) that your range is really, really narrow. If you did c/c flop and went for c/r on turn, you'd c/r this river, but I wouldn't count on villain to be thinking through all this - plus you're repping a super narrow range.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. As it happened villain folded.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

i like the bluff, he only beats mid PPs turned into bluffs, and he might think u would muck 55 66 77 on the flop anyways vs. UTG raiser
and i agree if u have a set (or KT?) your line would be the best line to extract max value (once youve decided to cc the flop of course)
i expect your avg. unsophisticated, solid 2-4 players to fold AQ facing this river c/r.

Re: Tricky play sir
 

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Id make a note as well, but fold it.

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I've been seeing this lately and it makes no sense. How are you gonna make a note on someone when you fold?



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I make notes about the lines people use.

For instance I might make a note saying "c/c c/r flop draw".

In this hand I would make a note of "c/c c-c c/r dry ?"

Now that I think about it though I can't think of many scenarios in which the note would be helpful.