400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

So, I'm not saying I'm HERO here, but this hand comes from our little study group and I think some interesting thoughts go into this hand though.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $428.80
BB: $869.30
UTG: $1,248.10
Hero (CO): $599.60
BTN: $407.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $54.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $38.00


<font color="blue"> Hero has been active and makes a standard raise and Villain is 26/22 and SUPER aggressive... he 3bets. Villain has been 3 betting a LOT and has shown down a couple of huge bluffs in the last 30 mins. Therefore, is it reasonable to think that HERO can call and outplay, in position, postflop? Is calling the 3bet, in position, bad here being 150BB deep? </font>

Flop: ($112) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $72.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $255.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero ???</font>

<font color="blue"> On a 2 flush board, what is he c/ring here? The general concensus of our group was that he could be doing this with KK+, TT, AQ, AK or air and that's about it. If that's the case, isn't HERO way ahead of his range and therefore, the best play would be to raise no? FPS or well-thought out? </font>

I just thought this was a really interesting, non-standard hand as opposed to the run-of-the-mill "I have AA and got 3-bet preflop, is it better to 4-bet or call" yadda yadda yadda stuff.

Thoughts fellas?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

why bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

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why bet the flop?

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Why not bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

do better hands fold? do worse hands call? will you get bluffed off the best hand ever? Does your hand need protection?

So I ask again, why bet the flop?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

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do better hands fold? do worse hands call? will you get bluffed off the best hand ever? Does your hand need protection?

So I ask again, why bet the flop?

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Villain has shown a propensity to 3bet light/bluff. That said, is he really checking a better hand here, giving us the opportunity to check behind w/ a FD or other hand and miss extracting value?

Can villain c/r a hand other than air and the above listed hands? Therefore, we give villain an opportunity to bluff at us and for us to pick it off?

Too FPS or reasonable? Just trying to think outside the box here is all....

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

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and Axs in particular can be 4 bet shoved too or 4 bet and call shove

there's a long discussion in CTS' blog and probably a few threads on here

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against light 3-bettors I've begun 4-betting more and with reasonable succes.

Some of these light 3-bettors are so FOS and/or just chicken out when you don't fold or call.


You basically turn any hand except AA/KK/AK into a bluff, but against the right opponent it's a profitable play.

In my regular game there's a handfull of players I abuse this way with frequent 4-bets against their 3-bets and squeezes.

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And that's my point here. Can he really c/r here seeing as HERO called IN POSITION, therefore unless he has a monster, he has got to worry, unless he's doing this with air (ie. AQ or AK)?

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Well if you bet then it should done with a plan for what to do if c/r'ed. In this situation if villain is behind with a big ace then I'd prefer to check behind on the flop.

I agree that the 3-bet followed by a c/r is usually a bluff/draw so I think that if you bet it sbould be with the intention of getting the money AI and being ok with that.

Still I prefer to check behind, if na A hits we stack AK, if a 4 hits we stack overpairs, the worse thing that happens is we give KQ or something like that a chance to catch up. Another good quality to checking behind is that when villain is playing TT+ weird we keep the pot smallern while behind.

All in all I think more good things happen when checking than when betting, but with the right read bet/calling isn't bad, I don't think I'd bet/fold here though.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

fold preflop. Ax is a horrible hand to call a 3bet with. Only call this 3bet if you think he 3bets so much that Ax is ahead of his 3betting range. If you want to call in position to outplay post flop then choose hands that aren't likely to be dominated.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you bet then it should done with a plan for what to do if c/r'ed. In this situation if villain is behind with a big ace then I'd prefer to check behind on the flop.

I agree that the 3-bet followed by a c/r is usually a bluff/draw so I think that if you bet it sbould be with the intention of getting the money AI and being ok with that.

Still I prefer to check behind, if na A hits we stack AK, if a 4 hits we stack overpairs, the worse thing that happens is we give KQ or something like that a chance to catch up. Another good quality to checking behind is that when villain is playing TT+ weird we keep the pot smallern while behind.

All in all I think more good things happen when checking than when betting, but with the right read bet/calling isn't bad, I don't think I'd bet/fold here though.

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I think you make some very good points here. Quite compelling.

HERO had ZERO inclination to fold here, in fact, he planned on getting it in here if c/r'd. Is pushing over a 3bet bad? The turn could bring some scare cards, therefore, if we thing we're ahead of his range, would pushing over his 3bet be the right play as opposed to just calling it?

And yeesh is right regarding calling looking to outplay w/o a dominated hand would be better. In hindsight, I think HERO should have folded to the 3-bet, but having called, I think this brings up a damn interesting spot.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

this hand is a trainwreck. fold pf, check flop behind. also i hope you realise that along with bigger pp's, alot of the draws he might have, for example KQcc, are ahead of you on the flop. there is so much unnecessary FPS and try hard higher level thinking going on in this hand. try to work on just playing a solid game instead of making clearly -ev preflop calls with dominated hands to try and outplay someone who is going make life very difficult for you.

also, am i tripping or is the HH wrong, because it looks like 100BB effective stacks to me.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I don t mind the call preflop if u only do it from time to time against a 3 bet addict.
If you bet the flop you are turning your hand into a bluff which i don t mind since you would be happy to take that pot right now rather than face a tof desision on the turn if he bets or if a bad card comes (which is likely) and that was part of ur plan from the begining (outplay in position light 3 bettor) but when he reraise u just have to give up the hand ,don t go into deep thoughts ,so far all ur play have been marginal but okeish if u are going all in with that hand here then all the plays u have made so far becomes terrible imo since we came to a result because of or past actions.I hope that make sense....

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

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this hand is a trainwreck. fold pf, check flop behind. also i hope you realise that along with bigger pp's, alot of the draws he might have, for example KQcc, are ahead of you on the flop. there is so much unnecessary FPS and try hard higher level thinking going on in this hand. try to work on just playing a solid game instead of making clearly -ev preflop calls with dominated hands to try and outplay someone who is going make life very difficult for you.

also, am i tripping or is the HH wrong, because it looks like 100BB effective stacks to me.

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QFT.

i like a 4 bet pre if your gonna play. also check flop behind, u could easily have him reverse dominated and win a big pot if an ace drops. the only reason for betting the flop is to protect/find out where u are, and hes prob only drawing to 3 outs anyway IF u are ahead.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

this hand is fps [censored] but regardless when you bet the flop you better already know what you are doing if you get raised, congrats on putting yourself in a spot where you have a massive likelihood of making a ftop mistake

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I lean towards a shove here.

Does he check a big pair there on that board? How often does he does this sort of thing with air... often. You probably have outs if behind. If hes decent he probably knows you cant be bluffing him given the action/pot size/his stack size so that reps enormous strength.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Yeah I do not see how you can bet/fold your hand here? Is this guy ever checking a hand on that flop, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ??? But even that sorta hand this guy is going to lead with if he is THAT aggro?

The only thing Id like to know is does he think you have a propensity to bet most flop when checked to you. I could easily see him thinking there is no way you call flop with a hand as "weak" as your actual hand, so he puts you on JJ/QQ/Will Bet and figures he can check/raise.

I reckon this is SUPER close, so with your read I guess you call/push.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.660% 57.09% 00.57% 20348 202.00 { Ad4d }
Hand 1: 42.340% 41.77% 00.57% 14888 202.00 { KK+, TT, AQs+, AQo+ }

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

Preflop is close as it’s pretty hard to ‘outplay’ a villain like this with A4s, even in position. Either you flop good or you spew trying to get fancy imo. Still, I lean towards a call here (though I often C/F when I whiff – so maybe this is something to rethink?)

On the flop, I think that range is a bit narrow. I don’t see how you’ve ruled out SCs, AXs+GS, JJ/QQ, or even something like AcT. The fact is that the guy has shown aggression and a willingness to play wide open which should add quite a few hands to his range.

The CR is the strangest part of this hand, and tough to interpret w/o a picture of Hero. I think the flop bet is bad as I have NO desire to play a huge pot with this marginal of a hand nor do I feel the need to ‘protect’ it. Ck the flop, see what develops. The turn could bring a scare card or improve your hand getting you to a cheap showdown which is obv worth quite a bit here from an informational standpoint alone.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I just push this preflop over his 3bet if he's been doing it light ala cts. 30% equity = nuts

Also it's around 110BB effective.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

since when is 108x deep?

fold pf.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just push this preflop over his 3bet if he's been doing it light ala cts. 30% equity = nuts

Also it's around 110BB effective.

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Shoving Axs, while advocated as a particular style by CTS a while back, has been very VERY -EV for me. Maybe at NL400 and above it is a bit more effective, however I've never had luck with it (even when running 35/25).

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I didn't read the replies to this thread but preflop is questionable.

Flop you should b/c or check. I like check. He doesn't need to be trapping you to think well I have 66 and he prob doesn't have a pair so I guess I'll c/r.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

people like never check/fold this flop methinks.
i dont like claling with this hand pf, either fold or 4bet because there's SO few flops that hit you enough to push your [censored] in. Something like QJs would be a lot better to call with.
if youre betting its with the intention of getting it in, which i think is pretty marginal here without a good read.
id just check, but again if i wanted to make moves it would have been preflop, because this hand has roughly as much value seeing a flop as 27s.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

This whole hand is basically an admission that HERO is addicted to variance. Fold flop and stop the FPS. PF is meh, I'm not going to say too much about it though I prefer a 4B to cold calling.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Well if you bet then it should done with a plan for what to do if c/r'ed. In this situation if villain is behind with a big ace then I'd prefer to check behind on the flop.

I agree that the 3-bet followed by a c/r is usually a bluff/draw so I think that if you bet it sbould be with the intention of getting the money AI and being ok with that.

Still I prefer to check behind, if na A hits we stack AK, if a 4 hits we stack overpairs, the worse thing that happens is we give KQ or something like that a chance to catch up. Another good quality to checking behind is that when villain is playing TT+ weird we keep the pot smallern while behind.

All in all I think more good things happen when checking than when betting, but with the right read bet/calling isn't bad, I don't think I'd bet/fold here though.

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I think you make some very good points here. Quite compelling.

HERO had ZERO inclination to fold here, in fact, he planned on getting it in here if c/r'd. Is pushing over a 3bet bad? The turn could bring some scare cards, therefore, if we thing we're ahead of his range, would pushing over his 3bet be the right play as opposed to just calling it?

And yeesh is right regarding calling looking to outplay w/o a dominated hand would be better. In hindsight, I think HERO should have folded to the 3-bet, but having called, I think this brings up a damn interesting spot.

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This isn't really an interesting spot. HERO wants to be PA. I hope it went well for him. Let me guess, HERO won the hand... WOW he is so good.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I appreciate the input fellas and 2 things I should note:

1) I also think that a 4bet &gt; call here, preflop. After thinking more about this, it just makes more sense.

2) FPS city is right. It's welcoming in variance and is just un-needed. Yes, Hero did push over the top, got called by villain and villain showed AQo and Hero won. I don't think that matters, though, as I think the original range that we gave Hero was too tight.

I definitely agree this was way too much FPS/high variance and should be avoided in the future.

Thanks for the feedback and I'll pass it along to the fellas.

Re: 400NL: Steal, resteal and some too deep of thoughts?
 

I like either check or b/c.